Tempo Slider Bar

[commnthings]

I would like to see a slider bar to adjust the tempo during playback. This is done in (S-word) software. I had thought, a year or so ago, that this was going to be considered for Encore 5. Guess it didn't make the cut.

But is would be nice.

Bob

[Denkster]

It IS in already.
For Decades.

See Windows, Tempo.

E

[commnthings]

There is none so blind as he who will not look.

Bob

[commnthings]

What I REALLY meant to say was...

Would it be possible to add a "Percentage Change" calibration to the tempo slider? It actually seems to work that way already. The additional scale would allow the user to apply +/- xx% to all tempi as they are played and <Reset> would take them back to 100% of the score settings.

Bob

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Bob,

What I REALLY meant to say was...

Would it be possible to add a "Percentage Change" calibration to the tempo slider? It actually seems to work that way already.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by that. The indication on the slider is the actual temp in effect at the current spot in the score, and if we move the slider, then ongoing play from that point is at the tempo set (until the next embedded tempo change).

The additional scale would allow the user to apply +/- xx% to all tempi as they are played and <Reset> would take them back to 100% of the score settings.

That probably would need to be a separate mode for the slider (perhaps that is what you mean). Maybe there would be two radio buttons for the two modes:
• Indicate/set temp
• Scale all tempos by

Or perhaps the scale all tempos would be a separate dialog, with a numeric setting.

Best regards,

Doug

[commnthings]

Doug,

Thanks. I think the radio button idea might be the best. That way a single Tempo device could either set the exact value or the percent increase/decrease. In the case of the percent change it would apply to ALL tempi throughout the piece. The idea is that it would be active during playback.

Bob

[polarbreeze]

Doug,
Thanks. I think the radio button idea might be the best. That way a single Tempo device could either set the exact value or the percent increase/decrease. In the case of the percent change it would apply to ALL tempi throughout the piece. The idea is that it would be active during playback.
Bob

Oh, the penny just dropped. I don't normally use the tempo slider so I couldn't see the issue until I played with it. Am I right in saying that you're proposing a tempo slider that modifies the playback tempo in real time without affecting the tempo that's embedded in the score?

In playing with it now, I noticed that the tempo slider does something very unexpected. Moving the slider overrides, permanently, all tempos embedded in the entire score (start to finish), with no warning that it's doing that. That's very strange behaviour - is it intended to function that way? I would expect it to only modify the currently selected measures, or alternatively to modify the tempo from the current cursor position until the next embedded tempo change.

Hmm, whichever way you look at it, that tempo slider is broken, isn't it...

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, p,

I would expect it to only modify the currently selected measures, or alternatively to modify the tempo from the current cursor position until the next embedded tempo change.

It is in fact the latter if the cursor is not in the first measure when we move the slider. If it is in the first measure, moving the slider changes the initial tempo coding and changes all later tempo coding by the same ratio.

I'll discuss this in more detail shortly.

**********
First, on a related (and potentially-complicating) issue, note that when we emplace a tempo mark in the score anywhere in a certain measure, with a value of ttt bpm (and with "change playback" checked), the actual effect is as if we had called the Change Tempo dialog, chose the range to be that measure through the end of the score, and set the tempo to ttt. That is, as a result of having placed the mark, the tempo for the (entire) measure the mark is in, and all further measures, is changed to the value we set for the mark.

Had there already been any tempo changes at later points in the score, they are now nullified.

But the mark does not itself constitute an embedded tempo change. If we now delete the mark or move it around, that causes no change on the tempo coding in the score, nor in any other affects playback. The entire effect on actual tempo coding occurs when the mark is placed. The mark itself is impotent.

************
Now to the actual point at hand. If we place the cursor in some measure of the score (other than the first one), the tempo slider will reflect the tempo coded at that point. If we change the slider from that position, no change is made to tempo coding (anyplace) as a result.

If we then start play from that point, it is nevertheless at the tempo to which we have (re)set the slider (not the tempo coded there).

That play tempo continues until the program encounters a change in tempo coding. There, the tempo slider changes to the new value and play proceeds at that new tempo.

If, however, the cursor is in the first measure of the score (the tempo slider showing the current tempo coding at the beginning of the score), and we move the slider, all tempo coding in the score is scaled according to the ratio of the new slider setting to its original indication.

So we do have the ability to scale all tempos. We do it with the slider when the cursor is in the first measure of the score. The "opening" tempo is changed to the new slider setting, and all other tempos are scaled by the same ratio as that change.

Best regards,

Doug

[commnthings]

Sorry to drop the penny! I agree that the tempo slider making permanent changes to the score is a bit unsettling. That's where the <Reset> would be critical, taking all values back to the original score settings. Just be sure to do it WHILE THE PIECE IS STILL PLAYING!

I would like to see the Percent Change slider (or mode) adjust the tempo of the currently playing measure to xx% of its score value. When the next embedded change occurs that measure too is adjusted to xx%. That way Encore carries a fixed multiplier throughout, varying only as the bar is slid (slud?) The slider bar should make NO PERMANENT CHANGES to the score until/unless directed by the user. That could be a command button on the Tempo Slider tool or some other mechanism. Clicking <Save new tempo?> would give the same result as entering a value in <Change to xx% of current> in the "Measures | Change Tempo" window with the entire score selected

. That is essentially what happens now if you use the Tempo Slider to adjust during playback. I built a score, set mm 1-3 to 50, mm4-6 to 100, mm 7-9 to 150, etc. I started playback, used the slider to change the initial tempo to 69, and then stopped. I then looked at the score. MM 1-3 were 69, mm 4-6 were 138, mm7-9 were 207, etc. That is identical to changing ALL tempi to 138% of the original values. There does not appear to be an UNDO function for these changes made with the Tempo slider. There ought to be, even if you leave the current functionality intact. It sure does tell me NOT to use the slider bar in any piece where I have changing tempi throughout the piece!

I just did some tests with repeated use of the Tempo Slider and the <Reset> button. The behavior is weird and needs looking into.

Cheers,

Bob

[polarbreeze]

Hi, p,

I would expect it to only modify the currently selected measures, or alternatively to modify the tempo from the current cursor position until the next embedded tempo change.

It is in fact the latter if the cursor is not in the first measure when we move the slider.

That's not what I see - for me the tempo slider changes the tempo for the entire score wherever the cursor is when you move the slider.

If it is in the first measure, moving the slider changes the initial tempo coding and changes all later tempo coding by the same ratio.

That is very bizarre behaviour isn't it? The slider is calibrated, after all, as an absolute value, not as a ratio. I think the user expectation would be that the slider changes the tempo to a new absolute value from the current point (whether or not it's the first bar) up to the next embedded tempo change, at which point it honours that existing tempo code. That, after all, is how a real score works!

I hear you about the tempo mark itself being impotent (nice way to describe it!) so that's why I'm avoiding using the term "mark". All my comments relate to the (hidden) tempo codes embedded in the score.

The functionality of the "tempo" dialog in the "measures" menu is just fine and is unambiguous. this discussion, for me anyhow, is about the slider, which seems to behave in a thoroughly baffling way.

[polarbreeze]

Sorry to drop the penny! I agree that the tempo slider making permanent changes to the score is a bit unsettling. That's where the <Reset> would be critical, taking all values back to the original score settings. Just be sure to do it WHILE THE PIECE IS STILL PLAYING!

I think it's necessary to clearly separate two things:

(a) How to insert tempo changes into the score.
(b) How to modify the tempo in real time while the piece is playing.

The playback should be a function of (a) modified by (b). But (b) should NEVER affect (a) because that creates the baffling behaviour described in this thread. They should actually be two different tools.

Should it not work as follows:

Function (a) creates embedded codes with absolute tempo values (though the way to create those absolute values may be with a ratio, as provided for in the "tempo" dialog). Function (b) should modify that with a ratio in case the user wants to listen to the piece at a faster or slower tempo than "written" - as a refinement, it could report the actual tempo running at that that moment (ie a x b) because that's useful information for the user to know. But (b) should make no changes to the score.

The current functionality of the tempo slider tries to do a soupcon of (a) seasoned with a smidgeon of (b), hence the problem.

[polarbreeze]

...as a result of having placed the mark, the tempo for the (entire) measure the mark is in, and all further measures, is changed to the value we set for the mark. Had there already been any tempo changes at later points in the score, they are now nullified.

I would consider that to be a bug. The embedded tempo should only change from the current point until the next existing tempo change.

Later... and to reinforce the notion that it's a bug, consider a score which has multiple tempo changes embedded in it but so far no tempo marks have been inserted. The user decides to add a tempo mark in, say, bar 35, where the tempo is currently, say, 120. The user accepts all the offered values without making any changes, and leaves "change playback" checked because, after all, it won't make any difference, right, because we're not changing anything. The result of this action is to insert a tempo mark of 120, and also to change all subsequent tempos to 120. That certainly would not be expected behaviour!

[polarbreeze]

...If we place the cursor in some measure of the score (other than the first one), the tempo slider will reflect the tempo coded at that point. If we change the slider from that position, no change is made to tempo coding (anyplace) as a result.

That's definitely not what I see. On my setup it changes the tempos for the entire score (before and after the current point) as a ratio and those changes are embedded in the score right away and saved with it

...If we then start play from that point, it is nevertheless at the tempo to which we have (re)set the slider (not the tempo coded there).

In my case, that's moot because the slider does change the coded tempo.

...That play tempo continues until the program encounters a change in tempo coding. There, the tempo slider changes to the new value and play proceeds at that new tempo.

That's not what I see - in my case it does a ratio on the new tempo code.

...If, however, the cursor is in the first measure of the score (the tempo slider showing the current tempo coding at the beginning of the score), and we move the slider, all tempo coding in the score is scaled according to the ratio of the new slider setting to its original indication.

For me, it behaves exactly the same way whether the cursor is in the first bar or any other bar. It applies a ratio to the entire score, and it saves the new absolute values in the file.

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, p,

...If we place the cursor in some measure of the score (other than the first one), the tempo slider will reflect the tempo coded at that point. If we change the slider from that position, no change is made to tempo coding (anyplace) as a result.

That's definitely not what I see. On my setup it changes the tempos for the entire score (before and after the current point) as a ratio and those changes are embedded in the score right away and saved with it

Interesting. Are you working with the Windows or Mac version?

I'll make a further confirmation on E/W 5.0.0 as soon as we get back from our morning walk. I may have gone astray someplace.

Best regards,

Doug

[polarbreeze]

... Are you working with the Windows or Mac version?...

Mac. Maybe they're different?