More MIDI editing and MIDI sequencer features?

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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby Doug Kerr » Sat Sep 27, 2008 1:53 am

polarbreeze wrote:
q wrote:I just don't see how a request like Doug's would have any detrimental effect. It takes development time,that's all
But that's the whole point isn't it? There's only so much development time available/affordable.

Please note that I did not propose developing that feature (it wasn't in fact a "request"), nor doing so at any particular level of the "priority" scheme, nor trying to do so within any given development "budget". I was responding to an inquiry as to what features might be desirable. And I think that would be "desirable".

Now about the claim that I said I would increase taxes on the poor . . .

Doug
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Re: MIDI real time sequence emitter feature

Postby polarbreeze » Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:00 am

Doug Kerr wrote:
polarbreeze wrote: Encore is not a sequencer.
...it's not on the list in the Wikipedia article.
Well, yes, well spotted, Doug, that would be a good clue right there! And note that of course neither Finale nor Sibelius is on that list either because they too are not sequencers. On the other hand, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorewriter
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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby polarbreeze » Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:34 am

Personally I would favour limiting it to functions which are directly relevant to (a) the entry or display/printing of notes and other score elements; or (b) the "auditioning" of scores (for proofing purposes).

These might include:
  • Ability to select a range of measures and play just that section (perhaps repeatedly, for auditioning), or export it to a MIDI file for later use.
  • Good "punch-in, punch out" capability for over-recording.
  • Ability to have stored macros (although this isn't uniquely a sequencer-type feature)
But would not include:
  • Ability to control (relative) tempo, (relative) pitch or key, and (relative) overall volume of the emitted MIDI sequence (during play), beyond what is already provided.
  • Ability to see the "MIDI" properties of any note beyond what is already provided.
  • Ability to adjust precise starting time of notes.
  • Ability to convey lyrics into the MIDI file
  • Color display of note being sounded during play
  • Onscreen display, when playing, of real and/or metrical time (in measures, beats, ticks)
  • Things dealing with audio representations.
  • Piano roll display/editing paradigm.
  • Event list editing
  • Provisions for dealing with SMPTE time codes and with their variations.
  • Hamster control beyond what is already provided
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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby Doug Kerr » Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:52 am

Hi, p,
polarbreeze wrote:Personally I would favour limiting it to functions which are directly relevant to (a) the entry or display/printing of notes and other score elements; or (b) the auditioning of scores (for "proofreading" purposes).

I think that is a very reasonable position. I myself have no great motivation for adding features drawn from the specialties of MIDI sequencer capability. (I would like Encore to have some things that many sequencers have, but they are not "sequencer" things.)

[These] would not include:
  • Ability to see the "MIDI" properties of any note beyond what is already provided.

Which is essentially nothing at all. As near as I know, we cannot in any way within Encore today determine the velocity, precise starting time, nor duration of any given note. (Perhaps the Mac form of V5 provides something in this regard - I forget.)

Best regards,

Doug
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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby polarbreeze » Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:21 am

Doug Kerr wrote:
polarbreeze wrote:Ability to see the "MIDI" properties of any note beyond what is already provided.
Which is essentially nothing at all. As near as I know, we cannot in any way within Encore today determine the velocity, precise starting time, nor duration of any given note.
That's true I guess and I don't really miss it except that it would be nice to know the "current value" of the note velocity and also the "current value" of the note duration modifier. It's more comfortable to know what value is the starting point before changing it, though it's not a very important point IMHO. Also, without radical UI redesign, this would have to apply only if single notes were selected, not groups of notes.
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Re: More MIDI editing and MIDI sequencer features?

Postby Doug Kerr » Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:08 am

Hi, a,

anaigeon wrote:This would useful, I agree ; but it sounds more like a better access to what is already implemented, than adding new features.

If you are referring to the ability to determine the current properties of a note, there is nothing currently implemented for that, so I would have to think of gaining any capability in that regard as a new feature, not as "better access".

Not that the distinction matters.

Best regards,

Doug
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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby q » Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:22 am

polarbreeze wrote:
Doug Kerr wrote:
polarbreeze wrote:
As near as I know, we cannot in any way within Encore today determine the velocity, precise starting time, nor duration of any given note.
That's true I guess and I don't really miss it except that it would be nice to know the "current value" of the note velocity and also the "current value" of the note duration modifier.

Actually I know of two ways to check and set velocity in Encore.

    There is the Velocity dialog. If you select a single note, and open Notes/Velocity you'll see the note's velocity in the "Set all values to:" field. Kinda of a weird interface, but a way to determine and change velocity on a single note. [Update: Turns out the previous statement is false. This is pointed out in the discussion below. So it appears the following method is the ONLY way see the current velocity value and set it to another specific value.]

    Alternately, in Mac Encore 5, within the score, you can comand-shift click any note to summon a velocity contextual menu which displays the current setting and allows you to select any other value. It's a tall, wieldy menu to scroll through, but remarkably handy when need to modify a velocity slightly.
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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby Doug Kerr » Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:30 am

q wrote:Actually there are two ways that I know of.

There is the Velocity dialog. If you select a single note, and open Notes/Velocity you'll see the note's velocity in the "Set all values to:" field. Kinda of a weird interface, but a way to determine and change velocity on a single note.

Not in the Windows version. The "set all values to" field, when the dialog is opened, shows the last value used with that field, not the current value for the note now selected.

Alternately, within the score, you can comand-shift click any note to summon a velocity contextual menu which displays the current setting and allows you to select any other value. It's a tall, wieldy menu to scroll through, but remarkable handy when you just need to slightly modify a velocity.

No such thing in the Windows version.

I'd be curious to see what that dialog looks like. Is it covered in the Mac 5 manual? If so, can you give me a page number?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby q » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:10 am

Doug Kerr wrote:
q wrote:Actually there are two ways that I know of.
There is the Velocity dialog. If you select a single note, and open Notes/Velocity you'll see the note's velocity in the "Set all values to:" field. Kinda of a weird interface, but a way to determine and change velocity on a single note.

Not in the Windows version. The "set all values to" field, when the dialog is opened, shows the last value used with that field, not the current value for the note now selected.

Oh, yes. You're right! Now I recall. Long ago I perplexedly realized that the Velocity dialog does not reflect the velocity property of a selected note.

q wrote:Alternately, within the score, you can comand-shift click any note to summon a velocity contextual menu which displays the current setting and allows you to select any other value. It's a tall, wieldy menu to scroll through, but remarkable handy when you just need to slightly modify a velocity.

Doug Kerr wrote:No such thing in the Windows version.

I'd be curious to see what that dialog looks like. Is it covered in the Mac 5 manual? If so, can you give me a page number?

Doug, did you try control-shift-click? I think that's the Windows equivalent of a Mac command-shift-click.

I don't know if this feature is documented in the manual, nor do I know what it's called, but it looks like this:

    Image

Interestingly, changing the velocity in this manner updates the value of the Velocities "set all values to" field.

--

The second half of the following movie shows it in action, functioning as a 'popup inspector.' Not discoverable ... but it's a MIDI editing feature that leaves not a footprint on the interface!

q
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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby q » Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:04 am

polarbreeze wrote:
q wrote:I just don't see how a request like Doug's would have any detrimental effect. It takes development time, that's all :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .

But that's the whole point isn't it? There's only so much development time available/affordable.

I don't think it's the whole point. But I do wonder if it's your entire objection.

I created this post to try to distinguish between feature function objections, feature implementation objections, time-to-market objections, and the like ...

Many times I've been under the impression that you are patently opposed to the addition of MIDI editing features in Encore ... but I may have misunderstood you. As you've stated above, perhaps your whole concern is development time. In terms of timeline, marketing, ship by Christmas etc., I agree with you entirely! Encore doesn't need a lot of new features right now. This was one of the opening objections that I proposed, to which no one has yet responded:

q wrote:The addition of sequencing feature would certainly cause Encore to loose focus, and it would drain development resources so it would take longer to catch up. Gvox's top priority is to bring Encore up to par with the big boys like Finale and Sibelius.

Additionally, there's no arguing that I tend to imagine deeply into Encore's future, maybe more than is appropriate. I don't mean to get the cart before the horse, but when design and feature discussions arise, I'm pretty likely to go there. Maybe I should add [Long Term Goal] to suggestions that I don't see as immediate priorities.

polarbreeze wrote:
q wrote:...What if we could open Encore files in MasterTracks Pro? We could use all of its MIDI editing features, and save the result (back to the original Encore score.)

It's called MIDI import and export and it exists already.

MIDI export is not a viable solution. A round trip from Encore, to MasterTracks for editing, then back to Encore? If I export to MIDI I loose lots of engraving features. (That's why we have MusicXML — though imperfect and poorly supported presently.) MIDI export doesn't cut it. Nor would the present implementation of MusicXML.

polarbreeze wrote:It might be interesting to build on that thought though and streamline that exchange mechanism...

Thanks for your support on this. I assume you're referring to a 'new' MasterTracks that's able to read Encore files, operate on them, and save back to the original Encore score? However I must add, I only look at this as an interim solution, because I'd feel somewhat blind in MasterTracks without a notation view — if MasterTracks got a notation view I'd be happy. I think.

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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby Doug Kerr » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:44 am

Hi, q,

q wrote:However I must add, I only look at this as an interim solution, because I'd feel somewhat blind in MasterTracks without a notation view —if MasterTracks got a notation view I'd be happy. I think.

Not only "blind" but "dumb" as well - I could not adopt Master Tracks for all my work (for one thing) owing to the absence of MIDI lyric handling capability (at least as of the last time I checked).

Best regards,

Doug
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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby Doug Kerr » Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:55 am

Hi, q,

q wrote:Doug, did you try control-shift-click? I think that's the Windows equivalent of a Mac command-shift-click.

I understand. That does not bring up such a thing in E/W (nor does anything else, so far as I know).

I don't know if this feature is documented in the manual, nor do I know what it's called, but it looks like this:

This feature does not exist at all in E/W 4.5.5 (or in the you-know-what).

What a dreadful implementation for a numerical value with 127 possible values! I'm afraid this is a result of overenthusiasm for the "do everything with the mouse" paradigm!

Interestingly, changing the velocity in this manner updates the value of the Velocities "set all values to" field.

Not surprising. In E/W, the last value you set any velocity to becomes the "offered value" in the "set all values to" field.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
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Re: More MIDI Sequencer features?

Postby q » Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:03 pm

Doug Kerr wrote:Hi, q,

q wrote:However I must add, I only look at this as an interim solution, because I'd feel somewhat blind in MasterTracks without a notation view —if MasterTracks got a notation view I'd be happy. I think.

Not only "blind" but "dumb" as well - I could not adopt Master Tracks for all my work (for one thing) owing to the absence of MIDI lyric handling capability (at least as of the last time I checked).

Best regards,

Doug


Yes. MasterTracks is just MIDI in MIDI out.

Someone recently mentioned, possibly in this thread, that MIDI files can contain lyrics. If that's true, I'd certainly like to know more about that. I've always been under the impression that MIDI files cannot contain lyrics.

q
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Lyrics and other text in MIDI files

Postby Doug Kerr » Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:52 pm

Hi, q,
q wrote:Someone recently mentioned, possibly in this thread, that MIDI files can contain lyrics. If that's true, I'd certainly like to know more about that. I've always been under the impression that MIDI files cannot contain lyrics.

C'était moi.

There is in the definition of the Standard Midi File a bona fide meta-event ("Lyric") to carry what I call a lyric particle. Many MIDI sequencers (such as my current one, Cakewalk Home Studio), have provisions for entering lyrics (to be recorded under that syntactic provision) either on-score on in a text box (with update from the one to the other), linked to notes, and with full editing capability on-score or in the box). The structure as implemented there includes provisions for notating melisma(s) (although that is not a creature of the Standard MIDI File specification, but rather of the sequencer).

Then, to complicate the matter further, there is a second meta-event called Text. This is principally intended for recording descriptive material (such as author indication, copyright notices and the like). (As you probably know, these are often, in distributed MIDI files, smuggled in as staff labels - ugh!) There are different syntactic rules for the two "containers". I'll try and dig up some things I wrote about this some years ago - at the moment, I forget some of the subtleties. I need to get up to date for my own interests, so this will give me a good excuse.

Of course, the reason these MIDI file items are described as meta-events is that they cannot be sent out in a MIDI sequence (and it may that matter you are thinking of). There are no MIDI messages to bear any kind of text.

When I first got into this, my interest was in karaoke (the "silent orchestra") - not as practiced in sports bars, but rather as a tool for letting my fellow choristers master their hymn parts (we were almost all, as I have mentioned, relatively untrained and inexperienced choristers). I wanted them to see the words on screen with a pointer (not a bouncing ball, hopefully) to cue them while the arrangement played, with their particular part either emphasized, de-emphasized, or silent (we called it "Music Plus or Minus One").

I learned that the "karaoke" files that were distributed (often with filetype extension "KAR") were MIDI files in which the Text meta-event was used to carry what I would call "lyric particles". I'm not sure why that was done rather than use of the Lyric meta-event, but it was.

Of course, this was not good for me, since, although my sequencer would allow the entry of Text items, they could not be "attached to" notes, nor seen or edited on a score view or in a text box.

Then I discovered that there is an excellent MIDI player, oriented toward Karaoke use, that would respond to and display lyrics either carried in Text items or Lyric items in the MIDI file.

I had to do some figgerin' to get the display of melisma to work out "on the Karoake screen" the way I wanted it to for best cuing of the "students", including melismas occurring inside words. For example, in the Karoake display, the "pointer" moves over multiple underscores in synchrony with the multiple notes over which the syllable is to be sung! I have (someplace!) extensive application notes on the syntactic adaption needed to do this.

Let me know how your interest in such things comes to a focus, and I'll see if I can feed you some more stuff. For one thing, that MIDI player (Van Basco's Karaoke Player) is free, and you could easily get it (It's Windows, of course) to see what I am talking about.

Best regards,

Doug
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Lyrics in MIDI files

Postby Doug Kerr » Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:31 pm

Hi, q,

Here are some screen shots regarding the matter of lyrics in MIDI files, their management in Cakewalk Home Studio, and their use under Van Basco's Karoake Player.

The subject here is the tenor rehearsal package for Episcopal Hymnal hymn 703.

Here we see the lyrics as entered in the lyrics text box:

Image

Here we see them in the score view:

Image

The melsima representation here is not quite kosher because of what I had to do syntactically to make it play right on the karaoke player (which was in fact the "destination application" for this file).

Here we see the Lyric meta-events interspersed with note events on the Event List display for the MIDI file:

Image

The paragraph marks (CR chaarcter) at the end of some particles are needed to force a "new line" on the karaoke display (as well as in the editing box display).

Here we see the lyrics on-screen in the karaoke player:

Image

This stuff is great fun!

Best regards,

Doug
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