Offset persistence: Align Spacing causes Nudge loss

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, p,

Of course it works "by measure"!

Or, to put it another way, it works on a group of selected notes, but with the restriction that they must be selected in an integral number of measures.

Well, all the notes in one or more voices in selected contiguous measures. (We must select the measures, not the notes as such.)

[It's kind of subtle but in fact the operation is performed not on the measure but on the notes.

Well said.

I think Align Playback and Swung Playback are in the same boat.

Indeed.

Thanks.

Doug

[Denkster]

The problem may be: do some people confuse 'Auto Space' with 'Align Spacing'?

I don't see evidence of that here. But then perhaps you're referring to me!

No, just my general feeling.

Since no official functional specification of neither 'Auto Space' nor 'Align Spacing' is public, I'm afraid we will have to 're-engineer' those both, to clear the mist.

Here's what the User Guide sez:

http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3424

q

Thanks for the link to that extremely useful list of excerpts!

I think { .. } that the definitions { .. } are as follows:

• Align Spacing - Encore aligns all objects in the currently selected measures according to a set of rules, overriding any previous manual positioning of those objects.
• Auto Space "ON" - When the content or width of any measure changes for any reason, Encore automatically performs an immediate "Align Spacing" on that measure.
• Auto Space "OFF" - In general, no automatic realignment occurs. However, in the case where the measure width changes (for any reason), all objects in the measure are re-aligned proportionally (as distinct from following the "align spacing" rules).

Thanks for making a start with functional descriptions!

Both the manual excerpt and P's definitions miss at least one (most) important aspect of 'Align Spacing'.
The aspect that is responsible for the word 'Align' in the function name.
'Align Spacing' vertically aligns the notes that start at the same time in every staff of the system.

If this aspect is missed, the function rather should be named: 'Distribute (horizontal) Spacing'.
Take care! this function does not belong in the notes menu, because it does not distribute notes, but 'Align Spacing' should

• distribute the space
• (in so far it is not occupied by notes, rests, accidentals, clefs, repeat barline dots, time signatures, key signatures, cancellation keys, cautionary key signatures, cautionary time signatures)
• from the selected measure(s)
• (taking in account all staves of the system)
• proportionally, between the symbols in those measures.
• The proportions are dictated by one of two algorithms (or groups of algorithms):
• 'Mathematically correct' and 'Engravers spacing'.

I'm sure the two functions, 'Auto Space' and 'Align Spacing', have more properties and methods which are not described here, yet.

If we could determine and distinguish the various methods of 'Align Spacing' and 'Auto Space', we would probably find that both functions have some methods in common, but other methods are unique for one of the two.

Kind regards
Eveline

[polarbreeze]

OK, now we've all had lots of fun with this, I have a suggestion:

How about we simply get GVOX to FIX the SINGLE bug that's causing all this commotion?!

Namely: moving a barline with autospace off doesn't work properly and leaves notes stuck and stranded outside their proper measures. Fix that, GVOX, then we can all go throw rocks at some other features instead!

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, q,

OK, now we've all had lots of fun with this, I have a suggestion:

How about we simply get GVOX to FIX the SINGLE bug that's causing all this commotion?!

Namely: moving a barline with autospace off doesn't work properly and leaves notes stuck and stranded outside their proper measures. Fix that, GVOX, then we can all go throw rocks at some other features instead!

That would be a helluva good start.

Is this reported concisely in the Beta forum, and given a Lighthouse Ticket?

Doug

[q]

With again only a second to check in, I want to point out that "measure stretching" —Control(Mac)/Command (?Win)drag—seems significantly related to this discussion. Unfortunately, because it is so poorly defined in the User Guide, its intended behavior is entirely unclear. Its actual behavior unpredictable and obviously off track from the User Guide's description, yet there seems to be some promise within. It's behavior was pretty bad in 4.5, and I think worse now:

http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2005&p=11274

http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1595

Lighthouse report #478

Stretching should probably operate in a manner similar to barline drag "alignment", as described in the post made here by brother Doug:

http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3425&p=20455#p20455

q

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, q,

With again only a second to check in, I want to point out that "measure stretching" (Control/Command drag) seems significantly related. Unfortunately, because it is so poorly defined in the User Guide, its intended behavior is entirely unclear.

In the Encore 5 manual v3.2, the only reference I can find to "measure stretching" (p55) is just what we have been discussing, the matter of moving a barline. I didn't find any discussion of doing that with the Ctrl modifier.

What am I missing? Do you have a different manual than we do here? Could you give me a page and paragraph cite?

Is this a case of mislexia? There is mention of shift-drag for duplicating stuff just above (wholly unrelated to the issue at issue).

It is described as being done with Auto Space ON. In that case, I would not expect a "scaled" stretching, but rather change in measure size accompanied by reconstruction of Engravers' Spacing.

Yes of course the description in the manual is curious. Strange writings about a strange thing.

The passage entitled "Stretching a System" is especially curious. I wonder what they had in mind?

Doug

[Doug Kerr]

A curious wrinkle in E/W 5.0.2.593 is that if Auto Space is ON, and we drag a barline with Alt depressed, Auto Align does not occur.

The manual (p 57) says that Ctrl is used to suppress "adjustment of all data in the measures either side [of the barline]" when a barline is moved.

Doug

[q]

A curious wrinkle in E/W 5.0.2.593 is that if Auto Space is ON, and we drag a barline with Alt depressed, Auto Align does not occur.

Good eye Doug. And you jogged my memory (see the link below.)

I think the User Guide is obliquely saying that, if Auto Space in ON, Ctrl-drag disables the Auto Space during that drag. If this is what's happening, the User Guide should express clearly say so—the idea is instantly informative to those who understand the impact of the Auto Space preference.

The manual (p 57) says that Ctrl is used to suppress "adjustment of all data in the measures either side [of the barline]" when a barline is moved. Also, indeed occurs via the Ctrl key on the Mac, so the guide should also mention that the modifier key for Windows is Alt.

Unfortunately the User Guide does not specify if the "moving" is a matter of stretching/scaling the x positions of affected objects (what I would expect and also what occurs in 4.5) or if it a call for the bug that we've recently complained about, which it is.

I think this sort of bar-moving function has some merit, but if:

• it just moved the barline
• without sliding all objects along (logged as a bug)
• and if there was some logical firewall that prevented notes from "entering" the next measure

Unfortunately, I think the present behavior is actually the recent failed offset persistence bug.

I don't entirely follow what Matt was saying here, but it sounds like he confirms this notion. And it sounds like the voice issue he is trying to resolve is a bug he introduced in Encore 5. In Encore 4.5 I don't see the problem described. And there we get the "Align Spacing"-free placement scaling/stretching that one would expect.

http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1951

[q]

A curious wrinkle in E/W 5.0.2.593 is that if Auto Space is ON, and we drag a barline with Alt depressed, Auto Align does not occur.

I think the User Guide is obliquely saying that, if Auto Space in ON, Ctrl-drag disables the Auto Space during that drag. If this is what's happening, the User Guide should express clearly say so—the idea is instantly informative to those who understand the impact of the Auto Space preference.

I don't entirely follow what Matt was saying here, but it sounds like he confirms this notion. And it sounds like the voice issue he is trying to resolve is a bug he introduced in Encore 5. In Encore 4.5 I don't see the problem described. And there we get the "Align Spacing"-free placement scaling/stretching that one would expect.

http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1951

This just in!

Looks like page 256 provides an honest description of a temporary Auto Space pref toggle:

Bypass Auto Space - Barline    Mac: [Ctrl]+Drag     Win: [Alt]+Drag

q

[q]

Also please note the following "stretching" Auto Space bypass option (from page 256):

Bypass Auto Space - Notes


Mac: Click on note and hold then [Alt]+Drag
Win: Click on note and hold then [Alt]+Drag

Pfffff. I guess the Mac modifier key is supposed to be Control (there is not Alt key on the Mac)

It also appears that the suggested sequence produces an ordinary drag.
Reversing the sequence produces a potentially useful space stretching function; yet no "holding' is required. So I think the User Guide would be correct if it said:

Bypass Auto Space - Notes

Mac: [Ctrl]+Drag a note
Win: [Alt]+Drag a note

But once again we have bad scaling/stretching. Nice concept; poor execution.

q

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, q,

Also please note the following "stretching" Auto Space bypass option (from page 256):

What does that have to do with "stretching"? It sounds like it has to do with bypassing Auto Align when notes are moved.

But in fact (in E/W 5.0.2), even with Auto Space ON, Align Spacing is not invoked when we move notes (without benefit of any override).

In the Mac version, with Auto Space ON, do we get Align Spacing when we move notes?

Best regards,

Doug

[q]

Also please note the following "stretching" Auto Space bypass option (from page 256):

Hi, q,
What does that have to do with "stretching"? It sounds like it has to do with bypassing Auto Align when notes are moved.

I hope I'm not the source of any further confusion.

Did you check the discussion at the link I posted earlier, which also address the odd term "system stretching":

http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1595&p=8596#p8596

q

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, q,

Also please note the following "stretching" Auto Space bypass option (from page 256):

Hi, q,
What does that have to do with "stretching"? It sounds like it has to do with bypassing Auto Align when notes are moved.

I hope I'm not the source of any further confusion.

No, I wasn't paying enough attention (I was getting ready to go to bed). (Why am I even up now? Because Will Thompson called me from Anaheim to ask if I had seen the latest model photos he posted in the Open Photography Forum.)

In any case, in E/W 5.0.2.593, I don't find any adjustment of note positions when I move the last note.

And of course I wouldn't expect application of Align Spacing when moving notes in general - it would just likley put 'em back where they were. (I don't know what I was thinking when I talked about that.)

Are you saying that in 5 Mac, if you move the last note of a measure, it proportionally moves all the notes (just as if the barline were moved)? Sounds like maybe a good idea. And this is then evidently another meaning of "stretching", different from the one mentioned on page 55.

And where is this one mentioned in the manual? The item on page 256 tells how to do something without Auto Space, but it doesn't mention the something. And if the something is two kinds of stretching/squeezing (by barline, or by [last] note), then it isn't really Auto Space that happens anyway. In any case, the word "stretching" doesn't appear on page 256.

But there is a mention on page 232 (which I had thought pertained to moving barlines, not having read the whole passage). It talks about moving notes with Ctrl and Shift depressed to "stretch" (but that doesn't work in E/W 5.0.2.593 either).

That also talks about right-click-drag of the note for this purpose, but of course that couldn't work in 5.

There is a lot of fascinating stuff in this paragraph on page 232:

If the clef change occurs at the end of a measure, first complete the measure before adding the clef. Select and justify the measure (optional). Unless the measure contents do not require extra space for the clef, you will probably need to create the needed space yourself. With Auto Space off, select the arrow tool and hold down both the [control] and [shift] keys. Then [right-click/command-click] on the last note in the measure and drag the note to the left until there is enough room to accommodate the new clef. You may want to widen the measure first by dragging its right barline further to the right. Using the [control] and [shift] keys while dragging a note ‘stretches’ the measure contents for all staves. Using the [control] key without the [shift] key will stretch only the contents of the measure containing the selected note. When you have created enough space to accommodate the new clef, add the clef and continue.

I don't all care for functions that are only mentioned in a list of shortcut.

It's like Federal statutes where some of the operative clauses are embedded in the section on definition of terms used in the statute.

Example definition (in the definition of terms section of the statute):

Station Shutdown: Complete cessation of transmission from, and monitoring by, the station, which may not be done without notice to the Regional Office at least 30 minutes in advance.

What a nightmare.

In any case, in E/W 5.0.2.593, we don't have that kind of stretching/squeezing either (probably the same bug).

Best regards,

Doug

[q]

Also please note the following "stretching" Auto Space bypass option (from page 256):

Hi, q,
What does that have to do with "stretching"? It sounds like it has to do with bypassing Auto Align when notes are moved.

I hope I'm not the source of any further confusion.

No, I wasn't paying enough attention ...

In any case, in E/W 5.0.2.593, I don't find any adjustment of note positions when I move the last note.

Hmmm. I thought Eveline confirmed that this form of stretching operated on windows, similarly to the Mac

Are you saying that in 5 Mac, if you move the last note of a measure, it proportionally moves all the notes (just as if the barline were moved)?

Yes ... when Ctrl-dragging held on Encore Mac. But as mentioned, the result is uneven and erratic, and largely depends on which note you drag!

Totally quacked.

Sounds like maybe a good idea.

It would be lovely if it operated sensibly.

And this is then evidently another meaning of "stretching", different from the one mentioned on page 55.

It's quite different, though dragging the last note leftward produces a similar result. Everything is quirky. Dragging the first note rightward is like the Auto Space OFF left barline drag bug. It's quite "Through the Looking Glass".

And where is this one mentioned in the manual? The item on page 256 tells how to do something without Auto Space, but it doesn't mention the something. And if the something is two kinds of stretching/squeezing (by barline, or by [last] note), then it isn't really Auto Space that happens anyway. In any case, the word "stretching" doesn't appear on page 256.

Sounds like you're talking about the Encore manual ...

But there is a mention on page 232 (which I had thought pertained to moving barlines, not having read the whole passage). It talks about moving notes with Ctrl and Shift depressed to "stretch" (but that doesn't work in E/W 5.0.2.593 either).

Unbelievable. I mean, never trust the Encore manual:

  On the Mac Ctrl-Shift-click merely selects the note.

Did you try Alt? Ctrl is for Mac—and indeed on the Mac Ctrl-drag-note stretches the space between notes (much like barline "stretching" does in 4.5) and with at least as many of the 4.5 note collision/fusion bugs. See for yourself:

http://www.theoreticallycorrect.com/gvox/Control-Drag%20note.mov

That also talks about right-click-drag of the note for this purpose, but of course that couldn't work in 5.

I think I'm going to start creating erroneous User Manual corrections, just to see how many get added verbatim.

There is a lot of fascinating stuff in this paragraph on page 232:

If the clef change occurs at the end of a measure, first complete the measure before adding the clef. Select and justify the measure (optional). Unless the measure contents do not require extra space for the clef, you will probably need to create the needed space yourself. With Auto Space off, select the arrow tool and hold down both the [control] and [shift] keys. Then [right-click/command-click] on the last note in the measure and drag the note to the left until there is enough room to accommodate the new clef. You may want to widen the measure first by dragging its right barline further to the right. Using the [control] and [shift] keys while dragging a note ‘stretches’ the measure contents for all staves. Using the [control] key without the [shift] key will stretch only the contents of the measure containing the selected note. When you have created enough space to accommodate the new clef, add the clef and continue.

Wild! It appears that the manual suggests two workarounds for every bug.

I don't all care for functions that are only mentioned in a list of shortcut.

Likewise!

q

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, q,

Aha!

In E/W/5.0.2.593:

With Auto Space OFF:

Ctrl+<right drag> on any note causes a "stretch/squeeze" in the pertinent measure (both stretch and squeeze if the note is not at one end).

When there is more than one staff, Shift+Ctrl+<right drag> on any note causes a stretch/squeeze maneuver in the note's measure and in the corresponding measure in the other staves.

This is more-or-less what is described on p. 232 of the manual. (Duh!)

With Auto Space ON:

Ctrl+<right drag> on any note moves the note, but when it is released, Align Spacing happens.

Adding Alt makes it work like Auto Space is OFF.

If there is more than one staff, with Auto Space ON, Shift+Ctrl+<right drag> on any note:
• Moves the note, but when it is released, Align Spacing happens in the note's measure.
• A stretch/squeeze maneuver happens in that measure in the other staves.

Adding Alt makes it work like Auto Space is OFF.


We can now overcome E/W 5.0.2's failure to stretch/squeeze when moving barlines by using the note-based stretch/squeeze (last note as the handle) afterward.

It takes us old guys a while to catch on to this complicated stuff.

Best regards,

Doug