Tab octave description

[Andre]

from The Elements Of Notation, by Garner Read (Page 56)

... At the present time, however, none of these hybrid clef-signs is in common use, and

... the overlapping ranges of the four clefs in modern use.

* This clef-sign is to be found in some modern editions of music for soprano recorder.

When making such (very useful) quotes which relate to a certain "epoch", it may be useful to mention the date of writing...

My own little experience is that the 8va clef signs have become much more common use with computer-based score edition. While the human musician may have an implicit knowledge of which octave he's using, the computer playing the score needs a much clearer indication (on older scores, the 8vb mark for a tenor clef is generally omitted).

It could have been possible to make that the choice of an instrument implies a transposition and/or octave choice, but I feel this would have generated enormous confusion in a changing world.

[q]

When making such (very useful) quotes which relate to a certain "epoch", it may be useful to mention the date of writing...

Thanks for your comments and suggestion Andre.

Gardner Read's book "Music Notation, A manual of Modern Practice" is a standard reference for notation here in the U.S., so it didn't occur to me to include the date.

The material I quoted is from the 2nd edition, dated 1979.

q

[anaigeon]

It appears that the solution here is to recognize that the guitar is a Transposing Instrument and use the Staff Sheet to enter that Octave Lower transposition. This way the Tab will be correct and the notes will play at their proper pitches.

It would be worth a simple short paragraph in the manual to explain this.

I'd prefer a simple short paragraph explaining for what reason guitar should be notated with G cle +8va bassa. This would mix efficiency with education.
After all, we are presently editing scores at concert pitch (since Encore yet doesn't take in account instrumental transpositions), why should guitar (and soprano & bass recorder) be special cases ?
And when - hopefully - Encore will have such tool, will we have to write a paragraph warning that all instruments but these few ones are affected by the notation <-> real sound flip flop ? That would be a nigthmare, wouldn't it be ?

(BTW, that's the reason why I would like very much to have a F cle octave sup, because that's how a bass recorder sounds).

[anaigeon]

While the human musician may have an implicit knowledge of which octave he's using

I assure you that many recorder players are quite confused with these questions, as one can see when they want to play vocal SATB repertoire, and talk during several minutes, louder and louder, before knowing which instrument must be used for each part (not to mention that sometimes, they eventually play a different music than the one which was written, because some part is played an octave lower or higher than it should be) !
But transposing up such a score is straigthforward if it's correctly notated !
You just put an 8 up to any cle which has none, and cancel any 8 down you might encounter.
Don't think you make things easier by hiding the 8va signs to those ignoring the transposition, you only shift the problem to a later moment, in a more complicated situation...

[q]

While the human musician may have an implicit knowledge of which octave he's using

I assure you that many recorder players are quite confused with these questions, as one can see when they want to play vocal SATB repertoire, and talk during several minutes, louder and louder, before knowing which instrument must be used for each part (not to mention that sometimes ...

But transposing up such a score is straigthforward if it's correctly notated!

Don't think you make things easier by hiding the 8va signs to those ignoring the transposition, you only shift the problem to a later moment, in a more complicated situation...

Beautifully said, anaigeon!

Encore just needs to clearly define what it means by 8va and 8vb. I'm sure the competition leaders have done so, and they are probably in accord.

What confusion may have occurred in the past regarding 8va and 8vb in somewhat unimportant with respect to modern notation. The establishment of a modern concensus is what matters. People dealing with period pieces with have to sort things out on a case by case basis, as always has been the case.

q

[q]

• use 8vb an Treble Clef for guitar notation
• turn off the Staff Sheet Transposition
• AND lower the tab dialog octave settings, from low to high: E1, A1, D2, G2, B2, E3

Dear q,

Yes, you can do that, but I fear it is also a "behind the scenes shenanigan", much more complex than a simple octave transposition. It appears that both Sibelius and Finale treat the guitar as a "transposing instrument". That explains some of the funny comments that I've received from a Sibelius-oriented friend.

Hi Bob,

Actually I was saying that these steps provide the correct, non-shenanigan solution. The shenanigans in Encore begin with Encore defining the guitar tuning as: E2 A2, D3, G3, B3, E4.

Granted, MOST places you look say that E2 A2, D3, G3, B3, E4 is the correct definition of the guitar's strings, but I think that stems from the notion that conventional treble clef guitar notation correctly represents the pitches of the guitar.

I'm staring to hope that someone can prove me wrong, and soon.

q

[polarbreeze]

Encore just needs to clearly define what it means by 8va and 8vb. I'm sure the competition leaders have done so, and they are probably in accord.

I still don't get what the problem is. I think that what Encore means by 8vb is 100% clear isn't it? It means " I really ought to be writing this stuff an octave lower but that would be really messy and create lots of ledger line stuff so when you're reading this part just pretend that I wrote it an octave lower". Observe that it says nothing whatsoever about what frequency is intended. (I use the term "frequency" so as not to get into a debate about octave numbering!).

[polarbreeze]

The shenanigans in Encore begin with Encore defining the guitar tuning as: E2 A2, D3, G3, B3, E4.
Granted, MOST places you look say that E2 A2, D3, G3, B3, E4 is the correct definition of the guitar's strings, but I think that stems from the notion that conventional treble clef guitar notation correctly represents the pitches of the guitar.

E1 versus E2 is a complete red herring. There is already confusion, and lack of consistency, about octave numbering and this has nothing whatsoever to do with the current discussion. I think this whole discussion distills into something very simple if you describe the "frequencies" of the strings, thus bypassing that ambiguity.

[q]

The shenanigans in Encore begin with Encore defining the guitar tuning as: E2 A2, D3, G3, B3, E4.
Granted, MOST places you look say that E2 A2, D3, G3, B3, E4 is the correct definition of the guitar's strings, but I think that stems from the notion that conventional treble clef guitar notation correctly represents the pitches of the guitar.

E1 versus E2 is a complete red herring.

There is already confusion, and lack of consistency, about octave numbering and this has nothing whatsoever to do with the current discussion. I think this whole discussion distills into something very simple if you describe the "frequencies" of the strings, thus bypassing that ambiguity.

Granted. But once E1 is agreed upon, E1 can't equal E2.

That's what Encore claims in it's Tab Setup tuning definitions.

The problem to which I refer exists purely in the Tab Setup area. It's is the incongruence of the instrument tuning definitions defined therein. If the guitar's high E string is E3, then because the violin's high E is an octave higher it must be E5, but WITHIN ENCORE it's NOT. Encore lists them both as E4 when they ARE an octave apart. That's the crux. And it is likely to confuse anyone who is trying to define a tuning in Tab Setup, or to anyone trying to understand its logic.

Where not talking about mixed notions of octave numbering.

Encore violates its own rule by setting it and breaking it.

The rest (8vb, transposition in the Staff Sheet, etc.) is negotiable. Each user can choose an approach based on preference or convention.

q

[q]

 
Just occurred to me, perhaps Matt erred back in 2007 when redefining the violin definition (lowering it an octave):

Don't know if this restricted beta link leads to the beginning of the thread, but that's the place to jump in

http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=31
q

[q]

 
Just occurred to me, perhaps Matt erred back in 2007 when redefining the violin definition (lowering it an octave):

Don't know if this restricted beta link leads to the beginning of the thread, but that's the place to jump in

http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=31
q

By the way I think this was the first and only time that Gvox updated the tablature features, mainly by adding instrument tuning presets. In previous versions of Encore you had to define your own from scratch.

q

[commnthings]

E1 versus E2 is a complete red herring.

Right on!

This whole Tab Octave thing has nothing to do with whether E2 is 329.63 Hz or 164.81 Hz. That is an arcane issue to be debated amongst music theorists and other anal retentive types. The issue is that the guitar is a TRANSPOSING INSTRUMENT and sounds one octave lower than the pitch written. That is, when I write a "middle C" and play it on the guitar I get a pitch that sounds one octave below what I get if I play it on the piano.

Various clef signs are used for the convenience of keeping the bulk of the music within the staff and minimizing the number of ledger lines needing to be read (or mis-read). Virtually all guitar music is written in the normal G clef and is intended to be played an octave down. This is an understood convention and is no different than a Bf trumpet playing a whole tone below the written note. Encore's Tab production takes this transposition into account and when a "middle C" is written it places the note on the fretboard at the position for "C below middle C" as it ought to. The confusion comes when the Encore user wants to hear the guitar score played at the correct pitch. IMHO the correct solution is to use the simple <Key> function on the Staff Sheet and set it for <Octave Lower>. That way the Tab comes out right and the notes play at the correct pitch, all with a single check mark.

Use of the 8vb clef is not really correct if you assume the "transposing instrument" aspect of the guitar. Changing the String Pitch settings on the Setup Tablature dialog is a "cheat" that merely muddies the reality of what's happening. What the notator is doing is nothing different that what he does when notating for a Bb trumpet. He is merely producing a tone 12 half-steps below what is written. That is the definition of transposition, and the <Key> function is perfectly suited to that task.

I think we're beating a really weary horse to death here.

Regards,

Bob

[q]

Encore just needs to clearly define what it means by 8va and 8vb. I'm sure the competition leaders have done so, and they are probably in accord.

I still don't get what the problem is. I think that what Encore means by 8vb is 100% clear isn't it?

We can deduce what Encore means by empirical observation, but the User Manual never states it's case.

The User Manual mentions the term 8va on page 61, without any supporting or defining text.

The terms octava and bassa do not appear in the user manual. When there is a history of ambiguity, and extant confusion about octaves and octave number, it's ever more important for documentation to address theses issues.

It means " I really ought to be writing this stuff an octave lower but that would be really messy and create lots of ledger line stuff so when you're reading this part just pretend that I wrote it an octave lower". Observe that it says nothing whatsoever about what frequency is intended. (I use the term "frequency" so as not to get into a debate about octave numbering!).

That's my take on it.

q

[polarbreeze]

IMHO the correct solution is to use the simple <Key> function on the Staff Sheet and set it for <Octave Lower>. That way the Tab comes out right and the notes play at the correct pitch, all with a single check mark.

Yes and that's exactly what the Encore guitar tab template does.

[commnthings]

Yes and that's exactly what the Encore guitar tab template does.

Dear P,

Yes, it does. I didn't even realize that there was one already set up.

Now if we can just get the new E5Win Tablature bugs fixed . . .

Bob