Octave numbering

[polarbreeze]

Also used in display of note pitches (right click).

Right click doesn't seem to do anything for me (Mac 5) and I'm not sure why it's useful. But if anything I think it would be more informative to the user to show the MIDI number, since the "Cn" designation is installation-dependent.

Also used in setting sound for metronome click (although that could indeed just as well be only in terms of MIDI number).

Mac 5 uses MIDI note numbers for that.

[Denkster]

Except for the inspection..
Doug, I agree . Where the note name is used for setting, a better (more universal) ui would be a staff image where user can click or scroll to select pitch .

In my NL manual i added a chart with the various note pitch designations, because i was confused all the time.
Note name (C3), frequency(?), midi name (60) staff image (middle C) verbose note name (C grand oxctave or something).
And i noticed the error with the frequencies in the US ,manual

[Doug Kerr]

Also used in display of note pitches (right click).

Right click doesn't seem to do anything for me (Mac 5)

Dommage.

and I'm not sure why it's useful. But if anything I think it would be more informative to the user to show the MIDI number, since the "Cn" designation is installation-dependent.

I don't think the user (perhaps wholly unaware of, and/or unconcerned with, MIDI) who today can see with the right-click pitch inspector that a certain note on the score is a Bb will be helped to know that it is MIDI note 70. That would be awfully "propeller-head".

Doug

[q]

Where the note name is used for setting, a better (more universal) ui would be a staff image where user can click or scroll to select pitch.

Indeed. Let's use pure simplicity when possible.

q

[polarbreeze]

I don't think the user (perhaps wholly unaware of, and/or unconcerned with, MIDI) who today can see with the right-click pitch inspector that a certain note on the score is a Bb will be helped to know that it is MIDI note 70. That would be awfully "propeller-head".
Doug

So back to my original question. The user already knows it's a Bb by looking at the score - so what's the purpose of the inspector?!

[anaigeon]

Well, no, it is not just a literal label - there are some calculations that need to be made in various places.

But these calculations would be done, of course, with the internal numbering.
The "label" would appear only when displaying or printing.
(just like Excel may display "october 9th 2009" while indeed computing with a specific numeric date format).
Any C++ pitch class would do the job quite easily.

[polarbreeze]

Well, no, it is not just a literal label - there are some calculations that need to be made in various places.

But these calculations would be done, of course, with the internal numbering.
The "label" would appear only when displaying or printing.
(just like Excel may display "october 9th 2009" while indeed computing with a specific numeric date format).
Any C++ pitch class would do the job quite easily.

I think it makes way more sense to remove that nomenclature from Encore entirely. Encore does not need it at all - even now, it's only used in a couple of obscure instances and in those instances MIDI numbers make a more rational and unambiguous alternative. This makes the problem disappear altogether.

[Denkster]

I think it makes way more sense to remove that nomenclature from Encore entirely.

I agree. Never use 'obscure' nomenclature. Refrain to globally accepted standards, where possible. When confusion is imminent - as is with the C4 / C3 naming - do not use that type of names.

in those instances MIDI numbers make a more rational and unambiguous alternative. This makes the problem disappear altogether.

I disagree.
MIDI note number is ambiguous too.
Because,

1. since MIDI Note numbers only mean something in the world of MIDI, the user may suppose that the inspector shows the MIDI note number which will sound at playback; that assumption is wrong in case we deal with a transposed score.
2. Since the inspector works in the score view, which is the world of notation, to lots of users ('pure' notators' )the MIDI note number is meaningless.

Kind regards
Eveline

[polarbreeze]

1. since MIDI Note numbers only mean something in the world of MIDI, the user may suppose that the inspector shows the MIDI note number which will sound at playback; that assumption is wrong in case we deal with a transposed score.
2. Since the inspector works in the score view, which is the world of notation, to lots of users ('pure' notators' )the MIDI note number is meaningless.

I think that, in the visible score, the MIDI number unambiguously corresponds to the notation one-for-one. For example, with a treble clef, the note on the first line below the staff is MIDI note 60. Always.

To your first point:
In the case where the instrument has been designated as a transposing instrument for playback, it will play back a note which is different from the "first line below the staff" and is also different from MIDI note 60. By the same amount, moreover. If the user doesn't understand that playback as a transposing instrument takes them away form the "as written" note, then they'll be in the same pickle whether they're thinking in terms of notation or in terms of MIDI numbers.

To your second point:
I still am not clear on the purpose of this elusive "inspector" (elusive because I still have not found out how to access it - and because I don't seem to feel the lack of it!). The user already knows that a note is a "Bb", for example, by looking at the notation. So what additional information are they getting from the inspector? And if they don't want to know what the MIDI number is, they don't need to look at the inspector at all. Maybe the inspector should just be eliminated?

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, p,

A MIDI number pertains only to MIDI messages or events. It unequivocally implies a certain sounding frequency. It should not be applied other than to MIDI messages or events.

If I have a trumpet part, and there is a middle C notated on it, what its it's MIDI number?

Answer: It really doesn't have one, since this is not a MIDI message or a event.

If pressed, I would have to say that the MIDI number there is 58. since it implies the emission of a note by the trumpet with a frequency of about 220 Hz.

This cannot be disposed of by saying, "Well, of course we have to recognize transposing scores". That works for note names, but not for MIDI note numbers, which have an absolute association with pitch frequencies.

The note that I mention (on a trumpet part) can certainly be called "middle C". We can also recognize that as played, it will sound as a Bb below middle C. There is no justification for speaking of it as MIDI note 60. In fact, on a non-transposing staff, where we see a "middle C", there is no justification for calling that "MIDI note 60" either.

Doug

[Denkster]

I still am not clear on the purpose of this elusive "inspector" (elusive because I still have not found out how to access it - and because I don't seem to feel the lack of it!). The user already knows that a note is a "Bb", for example, by looking at the notation. So what additional information are they getting from the inspector?

I used the inspector in these cases:

Notes far above or below the staff
Notes with 8va or 8vb
Notes instaves with CLefs that I'm not familiar with (tenor. Alto clefs)
notes in percussion staves.

[polarbreeze]

Hi, p,
A MIDI number pertains only to MIDI messages or events. It unequivocally implies a certain sounding frequency. It should not be applied other than to MIDI messages or events.
If I have a trumpet part, and there is a middle C notated on it, what its it's MIDI number?
Answer: It really doesn't have one, since this is not a MIDI message or a event.
If pressed, I would have to say that the MIDI number there is 58. since it implies the emission of a note by the trumpet with a frequency of about 220 Hz.

True, Encore does have to know whether it's dealing with a transposing instrument before it can say with certainty what the MIDI note number is. Scientific pitch notation works the same way. Is that note to which you refer a C4 or is it a Bb3? Answer: for a trumpet, the note that you're calling Middle C is in fact a Bb3. And MIDI note number 58 is equivalent to scientific pitch Bb3 - always.

[Doug Kerr]

Hey, Matt,

Is there no "note pitch inspector" in Encore/Mac (what we have in Encore/Windows by right-clicking on a note in the score)?

"Polarbreeze" reports that he is unable to find that feature in his Mac version.

Thanks.

Doug

[Doug Kerr]

Well, this surely would be helpful to the Encore user with moderate musical theory skills and little knowledge of MIDI:

Pitch_inspector_03.gif (1.39 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

Of course we MIDI experts, without even having to take off our socks, can immediately see that this note is - well, note 60 is middle C, so this is something a bit below that - let me see: C, B, Bb, A, Ab, G, Gb.

Yes, by gar, its bloody G flat below middle C.

Doug

[q]

Hey, Matt,

Is there no "note pitch inspector" in Encore/Mac (what we have in Encore/Windows by right-clicking on a note in the score)?

"Polarbreeze" reports that he is unable to find that feature in his Mac version.

Oddly enough (on the Mac): command-shift-click on a note.

I suggested right-click for the Mac's "note pitch inspector", and re-suggested that when I heard that windows uses that command. But rather than press the point, I thought, "Hopefully we'll have a more extensive contextual menu for notes and selections anyway."

q