Offset persistence: Align Spacing causes Nudge loss

[Doug Kerr]

Hey, guys,

I've lost track of the bidding.

Is it believed that with Auto Space ON, if we move a barline, Encore should perform Align Spacing on the affected measures?

If so, following which rules - engravers' or theoretical? Or perhaps which ever of those we used the last time we manually invoked Align Spacing?

And why should it do that anyway?

Prior to Encore 5, Auto Space did not have that role. Its only effect was when depositing notes with the mouse, from the little keyboard, or MIDI input. We could not arrange to have automatic realignment of spacing (under either rules) when a barline was moved.

I can't imagine that changing the width of a measure should ever call for an automatic Align Spacing (which we could enact with the Auto Space switch).

I do believe that when we change the width of a measure, all notes should keep their proportional positions within the measure.

In other words, it seems that this should all work like it did in E/W 4.5.5.

What am I missing here?

Best regards,

Doug

[Denkster]

In other words, it seems that this should all work like it did in E/W 4.5.5.

What am I missing here?

IMHO, you are not missing anything. Things should work like in Encore 4.5.5 for Windows.

The problem may be: do some people confuse 'Auto Space' with 'Align Spacing'?
Since no official functional specification of neither 'Auto Space' nor 'Align Spacing' is public, I'm afraid we will have to 're-engineer' those both, to clear the mist.

Kind regards
Eveline

[polarbreeze]

Is it believed that with Auto Space ON, if we move a barline, Encore should perform Align Spacing on the affected measures?

Yes, I think so. And that behaviour can be suppressed by turning autospace OFF, in which case the notes are simply moved proportionally to the measure width (but there's a bug in that right now).

If so, following which rules - engravers' or theoretical? Or perhaps which ever of those we used the last time we manually invoked Align Spacing?

That's an oddity but I'd have to say "using the last-used settings in the spacing dialog". It's an oddity because it really ought to be presented as a preferences setting. A similar oddity applies to "guess durations".

And why should it do that anyway?

So that those users who choose to rely solely on Encore's automatic spacing get a real-time view of what their score will look like. Those who don't want to do that can turn autospace off.

Prior to Encore 5, Auto Space did not have that role. Its only effect was when depositing notes with the mouse, from the little keyboard, or MIDI input. We could not arrange to have automatic realignment of spacing (under either rules) when a barline was moved.

I have the impression that this improvement was introduced in v5. I think maybe that is at the core of this whole discussion.

I can't imagine that changing the width of a measure should ever call for an automatic Align Spacing (which we could enact with the Auto Space switch).

I don't understand what's in the parenthesis.

I do believe that when we change the width of a measure, all notes should keep their proportional positions within the measure.

I agree, if autospace is off.

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, p,

Is it believed that with Auto Space ON, if we move a barline, Encore should perform Align Spacing on the affected measures?

Yes, I think so

If so, following which rules - engravers' or theoretical? Or perhaps which ever of those we used the last time we manually invoked Align Spacing?

That's an oddity but I'd have to say "using the last-used settings in the spacing dialog". It's an oddity because it really ought to be presented as a preferences setting. A similar oddity applies to "guess durations".

Since I wrote that, I find that the manual suggests that in this situation the rules followed are those of "engravers' spacing".

I can't imagine that changing the width of a measure should ever call for an automatic Align Spacing (which we could enact with the Auto Space switch).

I don't understand what's in the parenthesis.

I meant that we would determine whether Align Spacing happened automatically after a measure width change by turning Auto Space ON or OFF (that seems to be the current intent).

I do believe that when we change the width of a measure, all notes should keep their proportional positions within the measure.

I agree, if autospace is off.

I get it. If turning Auto Space ON meant that, after any of several changes to a measure, Align Spacing (with engravers' spacing rules) was automatically performed, this would keep the entire score always in that state (for users who did not generally contemplate making adjustments to note positions).

I can see that as being desirable.

An inconvenience is that typically I would have to turn Auto Space on when depositing notes by mouse (I like to just drop them in on the right side of the measure and have Encore spread 'em out) and then turn it off when I go into a "editing" mode (so Encore doesn't "jump in" and quash my individual position adjustments).

A thing that would work well for me is if we could separately turn on or off the two different functionalities that are actually in play here:

• Auto Space, meaning a function that only applies to the deposit of notes (as that named function used to be defined).
• Auto Align, a function that would automatically apply Align Spacing after any of several changes to the measure (when not suppressed by the use of the Shift key, when applicable).

I think here, as so often in Encore, we are suffering from a design era in which it was sought to add new functionalites but not new interface controls for them, as if menu items cost $2.29 each at Radio shack.

Doug

[polarbreeze]

...do some people confuse 'Auto Space' with 'Align Spacing'?
Since no official functional specification of neither 'Auto Space' nor 'Align Spacing' is public, I'm afraid we will have to 're-engineer' those both, to clear the mist.

I think (but after all this discussion I'm no longer sure that it's really clear) that the definitions (intended behaviour, not necessarily current behaviour) are as follows:

Align Spacing - Encore aligns all objects in the currently selected measures according to a set of rules, overriding any previous manual positioning of those objects.

Auto Space "ON" - When the content or width of any measure changes for any reason, Encore automatically performs an immediate "Align Spacing" on that measure.

Auto Space "OFF" - In general, no automatic realignment occurs. However, in the case where the measure width changes (for any reason), all objects in the measure are re-aligned proportionally (as distinct from following the "align spacing" rules).

[q]

The problem may be: do some people confuse 'Auto Space' with 'Align Spacing'?

I don't see evidence of that here. But then perhaps you're referring to me!

Since no official functional specification of neither 'Auto Space' nor 'Align Spacing' is public, I'm afraid we will have to 're-engineer' those both, to clear the mist.

Here's what the User Guide sez:

http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3424

q

[q]

...do some people confuse 'Auto Space' with 'Align Spacing'?
Since no official functional specification of neither 'Auto Space' nor 'Align Spacing' is public, I'm afraid we will have to 're-engineer' those both, to clear the mist.

I think (but after all this discussion I'm no longer sure that it's really clear) that the definitions (intended behaviour, not necessarily current behaviour) are as follows:

Align Spacing - Encore aligns all objects in the currently selected measures according to a set of rules, overriding any previous manual positioning of those objects.

Auto Space "ON" - When the content or width of any measure changes for any reason, Encore automatically performs an immediate "Align Spacing" on that measure.

Auto Space "OFF" - In general, no automatic realignment occurs. However, in the case where the measure width changes (for any reason), all objects in the measure are re-aligned proportionally (as distinct from following the "align spacing" rules).

If these comments are accurate, and I believe they are, they would bring a deeper level of clarity to the User Guide.

q

[q]

I will be mostly out of the loop again today.

Sorry to leave so many excellent comments and questions without reply!

Thanks to all for chipping away.

Also, as mentioned, I may have better insights/examples as use Encore again in upcoming projects.

q

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, p,

I think (but after all this discussion I'm no longer sure that it's really clear) that the definitions (intended behaviour, not necessarily current behaviour) are as follows:

Align Spacing - Encore aligns all objects in the currently selected measures according to a set of rules, overriding any previous manual positioning of those objects.

Auto Space "ON" - When the content or width of any measure changes for any reason, Encore automatically performs an immediate "Align Spacing" on that measure.

Auto Space "OFF" - In general, no automatic realignment occurs. However, in the case where the measure width changes (for any reason), all objects in the measure are re-aligned proportionally (as distinct from following the "align spacing" rules).

I think that is a nice clear, thorough summary of what is likley the current intent.

As you may have seen by now, I have (in a separate thread) made a recommendation that would provide "greater controllability" of the various behaviors by taking Auto Space (as you just defined it). and partitioning it into two different "switches":

Auto Space - This would have the same meaning as Auto Space did in Encore 4.x: only applicable to the deposit of notes (typically into blank measures). It would not imply the automatic application of the Align Spacing operation when, for example, a measure width was changed.

Auto Align - This would cover the remaining aspect of Auto Space as you define it - the automatic invocation of Align Spacing upon certain trigger events (as for example change in measure width).

My recommendation also includes" proportional scaling" algorithm in the event of measure size change with Auto Align OFF (Auto Space would no longer have any effect on that matter).

My rationale for this partition is discussed in that report.

Thnaks for your inputs, which were pivotal to my conclusions.

Best regards,

Doug

[polarbreeze]

A separate thought about terminology if I may:

The term "align" isn't really very appropriate because in normal usage "align" means that objects are lined up in, well, a line and that's not what "align spacing" does. The more correct terminology, if we're to draw from other apps such as MS Office, would be "distribute" except that's a bit of a mouthful. There was a similar discussion about terminology of "centre systems" versus "distribute systems".

Hmm, thinking out loud, the term "snap", as in "snap to grid" is quite descriptive of what "align spacing" actually does. Trouble is, the "grid" it's snapping to is more complex than a simple rectangular coordinate system. Although it exactly describes what happens for the "mathematically correct" option, the "grid" of the "engraver" option is variable because it is content-dependent.

Maybe Auto Space should be termed "Snap to Engraver Rules" or something, no not quite... just musing...

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, p,

A separate thought about terminology if I may:

The term "align" isn't really very appropriate because in normal usage "align" means that objects are lined up in, well, a line and that's not what "align spacing" does. The more correct terminology, if we're to draw from other apps such as MS Office, would be "distribute" except that's a bit of a mouthful. There was a similar discussion about terminology of "centre systems" versus "distribute systems".

I fully agree. "Align" has never seemed quite right here.

It may well be that what we are really talking about is "positioning" notes. I am also taken by the word "distribute"; it need not imply "uniformly".

Hmm, thinking out loud, the term "snap", as in "snap to grid" is quite descriptive of what "align spacing" actually does.

I don't think so. I don't think that a grid is involved (even a complexly defined one). I don't think we should attempt to rationalize the use of "snap".

Doug

[Doug Kerr]

p,

I think the historic use of "Align" here relates to the fact that in early Encore (and predecessor) products, the results of adding a note to a measure would often be a bizarre spacing mess, often with the notes of a chord not "aligned" and so forth. One was advised to use "Align Spacing" liberally to overcome this. The term may have seemed more apt in that context (especially with regard to the "chord repair" aspect).

I'm not at all trying to defend it in today's context.

q, I note your nice comprehensive review of what the manual says in that area. I'm not sure that is all apt, either! Some of it may be historical hangover.

In any case, as you may have seen, I have cast my lot with "Distribute Notes" for the feature currently known as "Align Spacing".

Doug

[polarbreeze]

In any case, as you may have seen, I have cast my lot with "Distribute Notes" for the feature currently known as "Align Spacing"

To throw another wrench in the works, it occurs to me that if this feature were in the Notes menu (instead of in the Measures menu) it could just be called "Distribute..."

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, q,

In any case, as you may have seen, I have cast my lot with "Distribute Notes" for the feature currently known as "Align Spacing"

To throw another wrench in the works, it occurs to me that if this feature were in the Notes menu (instead of in the Measures menu) it could just be called "Distribute..."

Excellent thought.

Of course it works "by measure"!

Doug

[polarbreeze]

Of course it works "by measure"!

Or, to put it another way, it works on a group of selected notes, but with the restriction that they must be selected in an integral number of measures. It's kind of subtle but in fact the operation is performed not on the measure but on the notes. I think Align Playback and Swung Playback are in the same boat.