Offset persistence: Align Spacing causes Nudge loss

[Doug Kerr]

Nudging seems to be defined by the Encore 5 manual (V3.2) as the use of a menu command (with associated keyboard shortcut) to:

• Move the position of a (selected) graphic object by a small increment horizontally or vertically.
• Move the position of a (selected) note or tab "indication" by a small increment horizontally.
• Change the vertical position of a (selected) note (basically indicative of its pitch) by one staff "position".
• Change the vertical position of a (selected) tab indication (indicative of the string to which it pertains) by one string "position".
• Change the relative position of an accidental to the left by a small increment by clicking on it with the same tool with Shift in effect.

I think part of my problem is that I think some people consider change in the horizontal position of a note by mouse drag to be nudging.

If there is a consensus as to this usage, I'll be glad to take it into account. This will suggest some manual changes.

If in fact nobody uses the term that way, then I guess that came to me in a dream. We be cool. Pardonnez-moi.

[polarbreeze]

Nudging seems to be defined...

I think the very use of the word "nudge" within Encore is problematic. It gives the impression that there is some "correct home position" for an object such as a note and that the user can coax it a little way from that position - and, by extension that it should be possible to "put it back" to that home position later. In fact, Encore contains no such concept. Once a note is moved, it's moved, period - the place it was before is history and no record of that is kept.

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, p,

Nudging seems to be defined...

I think the very use of the word "nudge" within Encore is problematic. It gives the impression that there is some "correct home position" for an object.

I think that the word itself suggests no such notion (nor does the manual give such an impression). I think that concept has been (inappropriately) grafted onto the word by some here.

I think the word is fine for what it is used for in Encore (at least mostly). It is common in other applications. The problem is not with the word.

Doug

[polarbreeze]

I think that the word itself suggests no such notion (nor does the manual give such an impression). I think that concept has been (inappropriately) grafted onto the word by some here.

Hmm, on reflection I think I agree with that.

[q]

I think that the word itself suggests no such notion (nor does the manual give such an impression). I think that concept has been (inappropriately) grafted onto the word by some here.

I think the very use of the word "nudge" within Encore is problematic. It gives the impression that there is some "correct home position" for an object.
I think the word is fine for what it is used for in Encore (at least mostly). It is common in other applications. The problem is not with the word.
Doug

Hmm, on reflection I think I agree with that.

Good. I too think the term is fine.

I've never felt that Encore's use of the term "nudge" implied anything but the option to move something in small increments.

I have only two gripes:

1) that Encore so readily corrupts and/or discards scads of meticulous nudges (i.e. we have no reliable offset persistence.)

2) that vertical nudges are restricted to a coarse vertical gridof half-space distances. This IS a separate topic, so if you have comments about that dimension please reply here:


http://www.gvox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3158&p=18593

q

[q]

When the size of a measure is changed, one expects the contents to be expanded or compressed proportionally. The action must not depend on the setting of "autospace" (currently there is a bug in W502: when autospace if off, notes can be hidden of pushed into the following measure).

Agreed ... and some pretty nasty bugs and disturbing visuals occur when dragging barlines while Auto Space is off.

But when notes are dragged or nudged, the spacing should not be altered.

Thank you. My point exactly! This option should exist ... without needing to toggle Auto Space prophylactically.

I always saw "Auto Space" as doing something only when notes are entered - [I] think it would be useful also when their duration is changed. Perhaps with a manual guess too.

Ditto!

Let's say I have a measure with of 4/4 with four quarter notes. I delete one quarter note. I change the duration of a quarter note to a half note. If Auto Space is on, then Encore should update the note alignment (ideally with offset persistence in tact!)

q

[polarbreeze]

[list]1) that Encore so readily corrupts and/or discards scads of meticulous nudges (i.e. we have no reliable offset persistence.)

Ah, now that's the word that I think can be a bit misleading. The notion of "offset" implies that it's relative to some ideal reference position. In fact, there is no such concept in Encore. One could argue that there should be I guess but in fact right now there is not.

[polarbreeze]

When the size of a measure is changed, one expects the contents to be expanded or compressed proportionally. The action must not depend on the setting of "autospace" (currently there is a bug in W502: when autospace if off, notes can be hidden of pushed into the following measure).

Agreed ... and some pretty nasty bugs and disturbing visuals occur when dragging barlines while Auto Space is off.

I'm not sure which part you're saying "agree" to there, q. I think that the respacing of notes indeed must depend on whether autospace is on or off. (a) If autospace is on, the notes must be repositioned according to Encore's autospace algorithm which, necessarily and intentionally, wipes out the user's manual positioning (because that's exactly what its purpose is). (b) If autospace is off, then any change in measure width should result in proportional changes to all the spacing in that measure, thus preserving (proportionally) the user's manual positioning. Currently there is a bug whereby (b) works properly when triggered by changing measures-per-system but it does not work properly when triggered by a manual repositioning of a barline. That bug needs to be fixed.

[polarbreeze]

But when notes are dragged or nudged, the spacing should not be altered.

Thank you. My point exactly! This option should exist ... without needing to toggle Auto Space prophylactically.

Aha. So what I think you're asking for is an additional checkbox in the align spacing dialog called something like "do not respace on note nudges". It's similar to the choice of whether or not to "adjust for lyrics". Is that pretty much what it comes down to?

[q]

[list] Encore readily corrupts and/or discards scads of meticulous nudges (i.e. we have no reliable offset persistence.)

Ah, now that's the word that I think can be a bit misleading. In fact, there is no such concept in Encore. One could argue that there should be I guess but in fact right now there is not.

There IS no such word in Encore. I simply coined the term "offset" to refer to the ephemeral effect of nudging. Sorry, perhaps I should have defined my use of the term early on.

The notion of "offset" implies that it's relative to some ideal reference position.

Yes, basically ... but "ideal" is not the term I would choose, because when nudging I'm ALWAYS OVERRIDING Encore's sense of ideal or norm.

Let's use the term "normalized" to refer to the x properties (of various notes/objects) that Encore sets upon Align Spacing. (Even we have the option of choosing alignment styles available in the future, each option will produce it's normalized positioning.)

An "offset" is the "x position" override that the user invokes by nudging (or by dragging a note.)

Does this clarify?

q

[q]

But when notes are dragged or nudged, the spacing should not be altered.

Thank you. My point exactly! This option should exist ... without needing to toggle Auto Space prophylactically.

Aha. So what I think you're asking for is an additional checkbox in the align spacing dialog called something like "do not respace on note nudges".

Something like that ...

... but, as Andre commented, I don't think offset "honoring" should apply only to notes moved specifically via nudge commands.

I have no gripe with Encore effectively moving nudged or dragged notes, but as defined in my last post, the "offset" would persist until the user adjusts or removes it.

Regarding dragged notes, I think a modifier-key drag would be appropriate for setting persistent offsets. Encore should probably not log persistent offsets with every drag—unless it provided a "offset editing" mode or Offset Arrow, where a simple drag would suffice. Some kind of immediate feedback (colorization?) would indicate that the note bears an offset value of other than zero.

It's similar to the choice of whether or not to "adjust for lyrics". Is that pretty much what it comes down to?

Yes, that is a reasonable implementation ... and it would be a nice feature, because anyone editing the score could toggle and instantly see the difference caused by the offsets. Regardless, I definitely vote for a single keystroke to toggle offset positioning on and off. But first we need to have offset property persistence.

[q]

Let's use the term "normalized" to refer to the x properties (of various notes/objects) that Encore sets upon Align Spacing. (Even we have the option of choosing alignment styles available in the future, each option will produce it's normalized positioning.)

An "offset" is the "x position" override that the user invokes by nudging (or by dragging a note.)

I've added these definitions to the original post.

q

[polarbreeze]

...when nudging I'm ALWAYS OVERRIDING Encore's sense of ideal or norm.

Not really - what you're overriding is whatever position it was in before you nudged it, which may or may not have been the aligned/norm/ideal state (whatever that means).

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, q,

An "offset" is the "x position" override that the user invokes by nudging (or by dragging a note.)

So, if offset has a quantitative meaning, is it the new position? In that case, its a bad use of the term. Offset usually means the difference between a value and a "normal" , "base", or "reference" value.

Or is the difference between the new position and the "normal" or "base" position (a reasonable use of the term)? What then is the normal (or base, or reference) position.

I think we have a favorite word here looking for a meaning.

Is the concept we are taking about:

a. A position we gave a note that is not what it was before we put it there?

b. The difference between where we put the note and where it was before we did that.

c. A position we gave a note that is not where Encore would have put it?

d. The difference between where we put the note and where Encore would have put it?


I could see (d) (only) being described as an offset. (a) is a position. (b) is a change in position. (c) is a position.

Best regards,

Doug

[q]

[an offset is] the difference between where we put the note and where Encore would have put it?

I have added this as part of the "offset" definition in the original post.

q