Hairpins Across System Boundaries

[commnthings]

Often a hairpin (cresc. / decresc.) needs to extend from one system to the next (shown on the attached example).

Cross-staff Hairpins-1a.gif (6.37 KiB) Viewed 1547 times

The only way currently available in Encore is to end the first hairpin at the end of the first system and then enter a second hairpin on the second system . If I enter a hairpin across several measures and then change the Measures Per System so that the hairpin crosses the system boundary then the broken hairpin extends all the way to the left page edge, an unattractive placement.

Cross-staff Hairpins-2.gif (7.39 KiB) Viewed 1547 times

Is is possible to provide a way to open the closed end of the hairpin, or provide an open-ended hairpin on the palette?

Thanks,

Bob

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Bob,

Often a hairpin (cresc. / decresc.) needs to extend from one staff to the next . . .

One system to the next.

Best regards,

Doug

[commnthings]

One system to the next.

Thanks, Doug.

Professor - 1
Student - 0

Bob

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Bob,

Is is possible to provide a way to open the closed end of the hairpin, or provide an open-ended hairpin on the palette?

Although those tools could well deal with the "visible" needs for intersystem hairpins, we also need to deal with the effect of hairpins on MIDI volume (the "playable" aspect).

I suspect that nothing short of the ability to have a unitary hairpin extend across a system boundary (just as we have for ties and slurs) will really do the entire job.

Best regards,

Doug

[polarbreeze]

Is is possible to provide a way to open the closed end of the hairpin, or provide an open-ended hairpin on the palette?

Actually I think that the current implementation is the better way to do it because it maintains the concept of a single object being split across a system boundary (similar to a slur). What's wrong, though, is that Encore doesn't properly deal with the alignment of the split object - it lets it bleed over into the margin. I'd call this a bug because it should be aligning it properly (again, similar to a slur).

[Doug Kerr]

Is is possible to provide a way to open the closed end of the hairpin, or provide an open-ended hairpin on the palette?

Actually I think that the current implementation is the better way to do it because it maintains the concept of a single object being split across a system boundary (similar to a slur). What's wrong, though, is that Encore doesn't properly deal with the alignment of the split object - it lets it bleed over into the margin. I'd call this a bug because it should be aligning it properly (again, similar to a slur).

Indeed.

I forgot that's how it works now!

Doug

[commnthings]

a single object being split across a system boundary

Dear p,

That's interesting. Assuming the alignment 'bug' gets fixed my question becomes "how do I implement a single hairpin across a system boundary?" Do I have to change the measures-per-system so that all the affected measures are on the same system, insert the hairpin, and then reset the measures-per-system? Given the alignment foibles in other parts of Encore that is a problematic approach and is cumbersome at best.

The same question occurs for the attached slur. For printing purposes we can draw two unattached slurs across the system boundary and they don't affect the playback, but we can't draw an attached slur across the boundary without resorting to the procedure above.

Since I don't much rely on the MIDI playback features all I really desire is the ability to draw an unattached (unplayed) hairpin across the boundary.

Regards,

Bob

[Denkster]

how do I implement a single hairpin across a system boundary?"

go in linear view,
add the hairpin,
switch to page view.

kind regards
Eveline

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Bob,

The same question occurs for the attached slur. For printing purposes we can draw two unattached slurs across the system boundary and they don't affect the playback, but we can't draw an attached slur across the boundary without resorting to the procedure above.

Well, or going to linear view.

But why "draw" a slur - I just have Encore put 'em in for me. It is glad to do that across a system boundary.

Best regards,

Doug

[q]

... we can't draw an attached slur across the [end of line] boundary without resorting to the procedure above.

... or going to linear view.

But why "draw" a slur - I just have Encore put 'em in for me. It is glad to do that across a system boundary.

Unfortunately, depending on the type of selection the user makes, Encore may be willing or unwilling to perform certain actions.

On the Mac, if I drag select the last note of a line, and shift drag select, Encore will tie notes, but it will NOT slur them.

I mistakenly thought the only way of slurring slur across lines is to shift-double-click the last note of line x, and shift-double-click the first note on line x + 1 ... but tonight's test shows that one CANNOT tie or slur across a end of line with this type of selection. Nor can one EVER tie or slur with this type of selection. Additionally, an attempt to tie or slur dismisses the selection, so the user has hunt for a proper form of selection and a command that honors that selection form. Bad form indeed.

In general, functions that are allowable across bar lines should be allowed across line endings. Any possible selection method should allow the user to invoke the function; the user should not be concerned with the method of selection. Switching views should be a last resort.

q

[polarbreeze]

a single object being split across a system boundary

Dear p,
That's interesting. Assuming the alignment 'bug' gets fixed my question becomes "how do I implement a single hairpin across a system boundary?" Do I have to change the measures-per-system so that all the affected measures are on the same system, insert the hairpin, and then reset the measures-per-system? Given the alignment foibles in other parts of Encore that is a problematic approach and is cumbersome at best.

Yes, that would be the technique. I used to think it was cumbersome until I realized that I could change the measure-per-system count with a single keystroke ( "[" or "]" ). I've found that the alignment gets restored OK when I flip the measure count back to where it was but I'm not sure how perfect that is in every case.

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, q,

On the Mac, if I drag select the last note of a line, and shift drag select, Encore will tie notes, but it will NOT slur them.

Yes, same here on Encore/Windows 5.0.2. Another unfortunate example of the inconsistency in implications of selections attained with different gestures.

I mistakenly thought the only way of slurring slur across lines is to shift-double-click the last note of line x, and shift-double-click the first note on line x + 1 ... but tonight's test shows that one CANNOT tie or slur across a end of line with this type of selection.

I'm not familiar with selection by Shift+double-click - we do not have that in Encore/Windows 5.0.2. Thus I cannot test here that scenario.

In Encore/Windows 5.0.2, If I individually select the last note in a system with Shift+Click, then individually select the first note in the same staff in the subsequent system system with Shift+Click, I can apply a slur (with Ctrl-L) or a tie (with Ctrl+T), if the notes are eligible for a tie, which extends across the end of the first system.

Curious difference between the two platform versions.

Best regards,

Doug

[Denkster]

Hi,

I will not contradict 'selecting in Encore seems inconsistent'.
But I like to point out Encore has the various 'behaviors' of different selection techniques for important reasons.
For instance.

Drag-select a group of notes, hold shift and drag select another group of notes and so on, followed by [ctrl]+[l] :
I use that often, to apply multiple slurs to different groups of notes.

That is why, for making ONE slur above notes, Encore requires selecting the the whole group of notes in ONE selection area.

Selecting notes together with notes in a next measure and next system (next page ends I'm not sure) is easy in linear view, or by temporarily changing the amount of measures in one system (with ] or [ ) and afterwards changing it back with the same method, that works flawless, - at least in Encore 5.0.2 for Windows.

Eveline

[commnthings]

go in linear view,
add the hairpin,
switch to page view.

Eveline,

I knew that.

'cept I forgot. I guess that memory is the second thing to go.

Thanks,

Bob

[q]

On the Mac, if I drag select the last note of a line, and shift drag select, Encore will tie notes, but it will NOT slur them.

Yes, same here on Encore/Windows 5.0.2. Another unfortunate example of the inconsistency in implications of selections attained with different gestures.

Thanks for confirming this on windows.

Rather than further splintering this thread toward matters of selection issues, I've posting my reply:here in a new topic entitled Eliminate selection duplicity