Octave numbering

[Doug Kerr]

Just a reminder that the octave numbering convention use in Encore when displaying note pitches (and for related purposes) is not one that is universally recognized. The note that Encore calls "C3" is in fact, under the applicable international standard, designated "C4", and in many music applications (at least under the factory defaults) is designated "C5".

It would be nice if the user could choose from among several octave numbering schemes.

This would of course have to be accommodated in several places in the program (including the facility for setting the notes to be used for the two metronome sounds in terms of note pitches, which works peculiarly today anyway).

Note that the "variability" of this convention does not affect MIDI messages, which do not involve any octave notation, and for which middle C is always note 60.

Doug

[anaigeon]

Just a reminder that the octave numbering convention use in Encore when displaying note pitches (and for related purposes) is not one that is universally recognized

Just a reminder that US doesn't mean universal.
I will understand that C3 isn't correct for you, if you understand that C4 isn't for me.

[polarbreeze]

Just a reminder that the octave numbering convention use in Encore when displaying note pitches (and for related purposes) is not one that is universally recognized. The note that Encore calls "C3" is in fact, under the applicable international standard, designated "C4"...

As Hamlet once pointed out, this so-called standard is "more honour'd in the breach than the observance" (bet you didn't know he was a music notation hobbyist!). Yamaha, as one rather major example, considers Middle C to be "C3" and I think that alone disqualifies "C4" from the designation "universally recognized". I've always used "C3" and I'm happy that Encore uses it too.

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, p

Just a reminder that the octave numbering convention use in Encore when displaying note pitches (and for related purposes) is not one that is universally recognized. The note that Encore calls "C3" is in fact, under the applicable international standard, designated "C4"...

As Hamlet once pointed out, this so-called standard is "more honour'd in the breach than the observance" (bet you didn't know he was a music notation hobbyist!). Yamaha, as one rather major example, considers Middle C to be "C3" and I think that alone disqualifies "C4" from the designation "universally recognized".

Well, I have certainly not suggested that the "C4" convention be considered "universally recognized". Did you read somewhere that someone has suggested that?

As for myself, I said (above) that Encore's convention ("C3") is not universally recognized.

I've always used "C3" and I'm happy that Encore uses it too.

To quote from your prior writings, "how nice for you".

Thanks for writing.

Doug

[Doug Kerr]

Just a reminder that the octave numbering convention use in Encore when displaying note pitches (and for related purposes) is not one that is universally recognized

Just a reminder that US doesn't mean universal.

I don't understand. I have always thought that "US" means "up stage".

I will understand that C3 isn't correct for you, if you understand that C4 isn't for me.

I have never suggested that the C3 convention "isn't right for me", or that anyone should feel inclined to "adopt" the C4 convention.

Still, I am pleased to "understand that C4 isn't for [you]". That is freely given, not conditioned on any "understanding" by you, correct or incorrect, of my outlook.

Doug

[Andre]

My understanding is that "C3" is traditional, and "C4" a rather recent standard.
Or rather "A3" and "A4" when referring to the 440Hz A.

Everywhere, some people are inclined to stay with the traditions, other to adopt easily new standards. No one is to blame. Specialists tend to adopt faster the new standards, while laymen stay with the tradition, often unknowing.

One can wonder why new standards are so often based on something else than the tradition, but that's another debate.

[Doug Kerr]

Just for reference:

• The notation program, Sibelius, uses the convention for octave numbers in which middle C is called "C4". I do not know if it is user-changeable; from the basic information in the manual, perhaps not.

• The Cakewalk line of MIDI sequencer-editor products allow the origin of this index to be set over a wide range, but the factory default is that middle C is called "C5".

• For the Yamaha P-85 keyboard, the specifications indicate that middle C is designated "C3".

• The manual for the Roland HP 137 Digital Piano designates middle C as "C4".

• Octave Chanute's original family name was "Chanut".

Doug

[polarbreeze]

To quote from your prior writings, "how nice for you".

I don't recall saying that...?

[polarbreeze]

I think the conclusion is that there is no universally recognized designation - so C3 is a good as any. Since that is what Encore does now, and is also in use by significant big names including Yamaha, my "Feature Request" would be to leave it the way it is. To change it would cause way more confusion than it's worth.

Also, I would not support the idea of making the Middle C designation user programmable because that would add unnecessary complexity and still more confusion.

[anaigeon]

As for me, I think this labelling should be taken in account by a future localized version.
Here in Europe the middle C is called Do3, and the pitch of the tuning fork is called La3,
by any standard music course.

[Doug Kerr]

As for me, I think this labelling should be taken in account by a future localized version.
Here in Europe the middle C is called Do3, and the pitch of the tuning fork is called La3,
by any standard music course.

Indeed, this is what is called the "Franco-Belgic Octave-Naming Convention".

In the German Tonhöhe pitch naming convention, middle C is "C4".

The convention in which middle C is called "C4" is sometimes described as "American Standard Pitch Notation".

The convention in which middle C is designated "C3" is sometimes spoken of as a Japanese convention.

Doug

[anaigeon]

Ok, it seems I've ,too, gone a little too far when saying "in Europe",
I hope German friends won't find me arrogant
I wasn't aware that Japan has the same convention than us.

I don't think it will be that difficult to implement this as a localized labelling.
Let's just have a file mapping an internal number with an alphanumeric expression,
that would be not more difficult than our current expression palette!

I would even ask that any OS pretending to be multimedia should make it
available, as well as date & numeric formats!

[Doug Kerr]

Ok, it seems I've ,too, gone a little too far when saying "in Europe",
I hope German friends won't find me arrogant
I wasn't aware that Japan has the same convention than us.

I think Polarbreeze has already told us that.

I don't think it will be that difficult to implement this as a localized labelling.
Let's just have a file mapping an internal number with an alphanumeric expression,

Well, no, it is not just a literal label - there are some calculations that need to be made in various places.

Still, localizing it might be the way to go.

• The Japanese, French, and Belgian versions would use C3.
• The American and German versions would use C4.
• Eveline could help us with the Dutch version.
• Other regional reps could help us with their regions.

Best regards,

Doug

[polarbreeze]

Still, localizing it might be the way to go.

• The Japanese, French, and Belgian versions would use C3.
• The American and German versions would use C4.
• Eveline could help us with the Dutch version.
• Other regional reps could help us with their regions.

Best regards,

Doug

Actually, when you get right down to it, there's very little usage at all in Encore of that terminology - in fact it would be relatively easy to remove all references to "C3" or "A4" etc from the app and from the manual without any adverse effect on useability. (By the way, the manual hardly mentions it and when it does, it gets it wrong, see my other posting).

Hmm, where is it used... as far as I can determine, the only place the app that uses this terminology is in the dialogue setting the split point. That could just as easily be defined as a MIDI number, which actually would be more correct, and certainly more universal since that is what Encore is really responding to. Otherwise, when I'm using my Yamaha keyboard it agrees with my Encore nomenclature but if I'm using a Roland I have to mentally map C3 to C4. But Yamaha and Roland both agree on the MIDI number.

Yep, I think I've talked myself into it. Solve this controversy by removing all reference to the term from both the app and the manual!!

[Doug Kerr]

[Actually, when you get right down to it, there's very little usage at all in Encore of that terminology - in fact it would be relatively easy to remove all references to "C3" or "A4" etc from the app and from the manual without any adverse effect on useability. (By the way, the manual hardly mentions it and when it does, it gets it wrong, see my other posting).

Hmm, where is it used... as far as I can determine, the only place the app that uses this terminology is in the dialogue setting the split point.

Also used in display of note pitches (right click).

Also used in setting sound for metronome click (although that could indeed just as well be only in terms of MIDI number).

Yep, I think I've talked myself into it. Solve this controversy by removing all reference to the term from both the app and the manual!!

Sounds good except for the note pitch "inspector" usage.

Thanks.

Doug