Tab octave description

[polarbreeze]

Small point but on page 119 the manual says:

"Note: Tablature and notation for fretted instruments is frequently written an octave higher than played."

This statement is true only of notation, not of tablature. The whole point of tablature is that it tells you exactly where to put your fingers! I haven't tried it but hopefully Encore plays back all tab in the literal octave shown on the tab staff - if not, that's a bug.

In fact, since the statement does not apply to tab and this is the tab section, that paragraph probably shouldn't be here at all but instead in some other section of the manual.

[anaigeon]

Well, it's not 100% clear to me. To talk of an octave, we need a reference scale, which can hardly be different from a visual one when working in an editor.
For instance suppose I put my finger on the lowest string on a guitar, how would you call the octave to which this note belongs ?
If you answer "it's the same as the note lying just under 3 ledger lines below the G clef", then you're indeed an octave higher than the real sound (the latter being, in fact, the lower line of the F clef).
Since you know that, I guess you might have another reference in mind, but... which one ?

[polarbreeze]

Well, it's not 100% clear to me. To talk of an octave, we need a reference scale, which can hardly be different from a visual one when working in an editor.
For instance suppose I put my finger on the lowest string on a guitar, how would you call the octave to which this note belongs ?
If you answer "it's the same as the note lying just under 3 ledger lines below the G clef", then you're indeed an octave higher than the real sound (the latter being, in fact, the lower line of the F clef).
Since you know that, I guess you might have another reference in mind, but... which one ?

Hmm, I don't think there's any ambiguity. We know for sure what the frequency is of the strings of a guitar and we know for sure what frequency is meant when we play a note "as written" (ie for a non-transposing instrument, eg piano or voice, say) from a score. So we can tell for sure in absolute terms whether a guitar note is played in the same octave as written or not. No other reference is required is it?

[anaigeon]

we can tell for sure in absolute terms whether a guitar note is played in the same octave as written or not

That's my point, what is the meaning of "as written".
There is a triangular relationship between the sound, the tab, and the notation.
There's no ambiguity between the sound and the fingerings, for someone who would never have seen anything else than tabs, you're obviously right.
On the other hand, there is (for many persons, including some guitarists !) an ambiguity between the sound and the notation.
Thus when someone wants to write down a tab into notation, there is an induced ambiguity : will he notate the sound at its real pitch, or not ?
I guess the sentence you had quoted might refer to this (admittedly small) problem, that's how I personnally understand it.

[Denkster]

hopefully Encore plays back all tab in the literal octave shown on the tab staff

Encore does not play back TAB notation a all.
Encore only plays 'note' notation.

The question is: How will Encore transcribe 'note' notation to TAB notation, in case the 'note' notation is written 1 octave up (as is common practice)?
The paragraph, IMHO, attempts to address this question, but the answer stays unclear.

Eveline

[commnthings]

The question is: How will Encore transcribe 'note' notation to TAB notation,

Eveline,

I had never been interested in Tablature until this issue came up and I tried a few things. If I enter a series of notes on the staff in normal Treble clef and then convert those notes to Tab, everything comes out correctly.

Guitar Tab Staff-2.gif (11.69 KiB) Viewed 2732 times

EXCEPT for the guitar the notes play an octave too high! Therefore, you have to go into the Staff Sheet and change the Key to "Octave Lower (C)"

In the past I had usually used the 8vaBassa clef. That eliminates the octave transposition as to the apparent played sound (the guitar player ignores the little 8 and plays the note the same way for either clef sign), but it retains the actual pitch. Therefore, when the notes are turned into Tab they show an octave lower than intended. In addition, I can't find any consistent use of the 8vaB clef by historical or modern editors.

It appears that the solution here is to recognize that the guitar is a Transposing Instrument and use the Staff Sheet to enter that Octave Lower transposition. This way the Tab will be correct and the notes will play at their proper pitches.

It would be worth a simple short paragraph in the manual to explain this.

P.S. For whoever worries about typos, in the third para of the "Make Tab" entry (both Mac - p 118 and Windows - p 178) is the item “Make Tablaute”. That probably ought to be “Make Tablature”.

Regards,

Bob

[polarbreeze]

...
On the other hand, there is (for many persons, including some guitarists !) an ambiguity between the sound and the notation.
Thus when someone wants to write down a tab into notation, there is an induced ambiguity : will he notate the sound at its real pitch, or not ?

There is a correct notation for that though - the clef sign is supposed to have an "8" underneath it if it's to be played an octave lower than written. So if it's notated properly there is no ambiguity.

[commnthings]

There is a correct notation for that though - the clef sign is supposed to have an "8" underneath it if it's to be played an octave lower than written. So if it's notated properly there is no ambiguity.

Dear P,

You're correct, but, as I stated earlier, the Tab produced will not be accurate. If you're not producing a Tab then the 8va bassa clef is perfectly accurate, but if you want to make a Tab from the notes you have to use the regular untransposed Treble clef and set the Staff Sheet transposition to "Octave Lower".

Regards,

Bob

[polarbreeze]

There is a correct notation for that though - the clef sign is supposed to have an "8" underneath it if it's to be played an octave lower than written. So if it's notated properly there is no ambiguity.

Dear P,
You're correct, but, as I stated earlier, the Tab produced will not be accurate. If you're not producing a Tab then the 8va bassa clef is perfectly accurate, but if you want to make a Tab from the notes you have to use the regular untransposed Treble clef and set the Staff Sheet transposition to "Octave Lower".
Regards,
Bob

I think we're violently agreeing! The thing is, though, that using the transposition function is just a fix for the notator's error in not using the proper 8va bassa clef.

[commnthings]

The thing is, though, that using the transposition function is just a fix for the notator's error in not using the proper 8va bassa clef.

Dear P,

Yes, we're in violent agreement EXCEPT if you use the 8vaB clef then the Tab created from the notes is not correct. With Encore in its present form the only way to get BOTH correct played pitch AND a correct Tab is to use the normal clef and transpose it an octave. Changing Encore to create the Tab based solely on the note position on the staff, ignoring the actual pitch as dictated by the clef sign, would be fraught with risk of introducing BUGs (perish forbid!).

Since very few (if any) modern editors use the 8vaB clef I think that leaving Encore alone and fixing the manual to advise about the transposition is the better/safer way to go.

Regards, and Happy Picking,

Bob

[polarbreeze]

I agree. It's the wording in the manual that needs to be fixed.

[q]

Small point but on page 119 the manual says:

"Note: Tablature and notation for fretted instruments is frequently written an octave higher than played."

This statement is true only of notation, not of tablature. The whole point of tablature is that it tells you exactly where to put your fingers!

In fact, since the statement does not apply to tab and this is the tab section, that paragraph probably shouldn't be here at all but instead in some other section of the manual.

Good point, pb. You make a subtle but important distinction which should be included in the User Manual's tablature section.

The question is: How will Encore transcribe 'note' notation to TAB notation, in case the 'note' notation is written 1 octave up (as is common practice)? The paragraph, IMHO, attempts to address this question, but the answer stays unclear.

Exactly Eveline. The User Manual fails to clarify.

There is a correct notation for that though - the clef sign is supposed to have an "8" underneath it if it's to be played an octave lower than written. So if it's notated properly there is no ambiguity.

... using the transposition function is just a fix for the notator's error in not using the proper 8va bassa clef.

I can't find any consistent use of the 8vaB clef by historical or modern editors.

Indeed. It's unfortunate that there is no widely accepted practice with respect to octava clefs. Nevertheless today most guitar is written without 8vb clef, and this is true in Sibelius and Finale—and apparently those applications have employed some an intentionally transparent workaround that may obsequiously confuse some users.

Personally I think the 8 above the clef and 8 below the clef speak for themselves rather clearly. However, for centuries people must have gotten got confused as to whether and 8 below the staff meant that 'the notation is an octave lower than the pitch' or the 'pitch is an octave lower than the notation'.

It appears that the solution here is to recognize that the guitar is a Transposing Instrument and use the Staff Sheet to enter that Octave Lower transposition. This way the Tab will be correct and the notes will play at their proper pitches.

That's OK, except for two issues explained below:

• there is octave conflict within Ecnore Tablature dialog, with respect to the octave pitches of various strings on various instruments. (See violin/guitar E strings mentioned below.)

• octave transpositions are not self evident in the Encore's Staff Sheet.

It would be worth a simple short paragraph in the manual to explain this.

Definitely. The user manual should thoroughly explain what Encore is doing, and it should address the opposing points of view regard 8va, 8vb etc.

I agree. It's the wording in the manual that needs to be fixed.

I don't think that's the whole story.

For one there's a discrepancy in the octave designations in the tab dialog. The high E on the guitar is the same octave as the high E on violin, when in reality, violin is an octave higher, and in concert pitch.

if you use the 8vaB clef then the Tab created from the notes is not correct. With Encore in its present form the only way to get BOTH correct played pitch AND a correct Tab is to use the normal clef and transpose it an octave.

Not quite. Here's an alternate approach.

You can:

• use 8vb an Treble Clef for guitar notation
• turn off the Staff Sheet Transposition
• AND lower the tab dialog octave settings, from low to high: E1, A1, D2, G2, B2, E3

... but there really ought to be an octave transposition switch in the tab dialog too! That would be so simple. If somebody sees erroneous tab results they can reset the octave right there in the tab dialog: they don't have to choose and alternate clef; nor do they need to hunt down and adjust the INVISIBLE transposition that the guitar template utilizes. (And yes, I'm saying that the Staff Sheet should ALWAYS visible indicate when an octave transposition is in effect, but it never does. )

Changing Encore to create the Tab based solely on the note position on the staff, ignoring the actual pitch as dictated by the clef sign, would be fraught with risk of introducing BUGs (perish forbid!).

Since very few (if any) modern editors use the 8vaB clef I think that leaving Encore alone and fixing the manual to advise about the transposition is the better/safer way to go.

Bob

I don't think that an ideal resolution is insurmountable, nor inherently risky. It would be better to fly by the book, even if it means educating the users, offer show/hide on octava bassa symbols, or some other reasonable solution. Best to avoid behind the scenes shenanigans that are supposed to simplify things for the users, like the undiscoverable Staff Sheet transposition.

Testers can reference a parallel discussion here.

q

[commnthings]

• use 8vb an Treble Clef for guitar notation
• turn off the Staff Sheet Transposition
• AND lower the tab dialog octave settings, from low to high: E1, A1, D2, G2, B2, E3

Dear q,

Yes, you can do that, but I fear it is also a "behind the scenes shenanigan", much more complex than a simple octave transposition. It appears that both Sibelius and Finale treat the guitar as a "transposing instrument". That explains some of the funny comments that I've received from a Sibelius-oriented friend.

I suggest that the simplest approach with no s/w implications is simply to amend the Manual with a very short note pointing out that in order to have a guitar score sound at the correct pitch AND still be able to create a correct Tab score you need to set the transposition on the Staff Sheet to "Octave Lower". Use of the 8vb staff is not used to any real extent in the guitar literature (from late 19th century to the present, at any rate), and

... but there really ought to be an octave transposition switch in the tab dialog too! That would be so simple. If somebody sees erroneous tab results they can reset the octave right there in the tab dialog:

That would be a very good thing! Probably not difficult to do, either.

Regards,

Bob

[q]

It appears that both Sibelius and Finale treat the guitar as a "transposing instrument". That explains some of the funny comments that I've received from a Sibelius-oriented friend.

Indeed. No octava bassa required in Sibelius or Finale guitar tablature.

I suggest that [Gvox] amend the Manual with a very short note pointing out that in order to have a guitar score sound at the correct pitch AND still be able to create a correct Tab score you need to set the transposition on the Staff Sheet to "Octave Lower". Use of the 8vb staff is not used to any real extent in the guitar literature (from late 19th century to the present, at any rate)

Well said. The manual should definitely include text that cover the points you've expressed, and even the ambiguity between 8va and 8vb.

... but there really ought to be an octave transposition switch in the tab dialog too! That would be so simple. If somebody sees erroneous tab results they can reset the octave right there in the tab dialog:

That would be a very good thing! Probably not difficult to do, either.

Forgot to mention, the octave switch should allow for 'plus' or 'minus' one octave, possibly more.

q

[q]

 
Here's some thoughts on clef/octava from Gardner Read. It's terribly very clear, but it's an opinion:


from The Elements Of Notation, by Garner Read (Page 56)

There is also much to be said for the idea of a bass-clef sign with a joined 8 above it (far left, below). It would be extremely useful for rather high bass parts that ordinarily would not move into another clef (bass or baritone voices, tuba, and the like). By the same token, the bass-clef sign with the joined 8 below it (left center) would—if generally adopted—be a useful clef symbol for 8va bassa transposing instruments contrabassoon and double basses). Continuing the principle, (the treble clef with the joined 8 above (right center) might then be used for the consistently transposing 8va instruments (piccolo and xylophone),* while the treble clef with the joined 15 above (far right) x would be a logical clef for the glockenspiel, which habitually transposes two octaves higher than written. At the present time, however, none of these hybrid clef-signs is in common use, and none should be written by the notator without an accompanying explanatory note.

Practical Applications

As with every other aspect of notation, the choice of clefs must be determined by two factors. "Does this make the composer's intention clear?" and "Will this ensure the best performance possible from the singers or instrumentalists?" For a ready answer in each notation situation, the notator must first know without question the overlapping ranges of the four clefs in modern use. These are shown in chart form in Example 4-6.

So far, the decision is simple. When, however, notes run either higher or lower than the staff, the notator must choose to employ a new clef, extensive ledger lines, or one of the octave signs. Here no simple rule can be offered, for much depends on the basic good sense of the copyist. But a number of practical suggestions and cautions can be offered for use until practical experience supersedes them.

l . Extended passages that lie so high above or so low below a staff as to require constant use of ledger lines (review Chapter 3) should signal a change of clef. The new clef will be determined by the instrument ...

* This clef-sign is to be found in some modern editions of music for soprano recorder.